Those pesky little scratches

[Nordnecker]

I really thought I had done a good job sanding my stock. Of course I went down through the grits to 320. I whiskered it twice. I wasn't in a hurry at all. I looked at it in bright light, low light, raking light. I could not see a single scratch, but they were there, lurking, just waiting to show themselves. I coulld not see them after applying the AF, I could not see them in the first coats of finish. But that's all I can see now.
How do you guys do it? Would it be possible to use something like chalk to make the scratches stand out? Surely you wouldn't want to use spray paint, then sand it all off. Water didn't make them show up.
Hershel House sais something like, "At some point, you just have to decide that you are finished, or you could sand forever."
How do you know when you're done sanding?

[bama]

How I finish and what I finish with depends on the wood. Red Maple I have more trouble making sure all blemished have been removed, usually these show up when going through the whiskering phase. Sugar Maple will almost take on a shine or polished look so any dull looking areas are suspect.

Also I rarely use sand paper anymore I mostly do a scraped finish, in cross light. This method is a little slower but I have eliminated most surface blemishes by doing this.

Walnut is another animal all together but I still scrape and use cross lighting but do several layers of build up to fill pours of stock. Any blemishes show up during this process.

The art is in fixing the blemishes after the finish process has been started, the key is to do a good inspection prior to starting the finsih process then you don't have to worry about it.

[kaintuck]

are you sure they are scratches?....could they be compressed wood fibers from useing a rasp..?if so, then steam them out~ sometimes finishing is as work intensive as the other parts!

oh...and get out in the morning or evening sunlight......it proved best for the great painters.....works for finishing rifle too!
marc

[Stophel]

PROBABLY the only one who can see the scratches is you.     I know I see defects that virtually no one else in a million years will be capable of seeing.  And sometimes, when you see "scratches", you're just seeing clean, open grain, so it might not be scratches at all anyway.

That said, depending upon the type of finish you have on the gun, the burnisher can really be your friend.  I can make an antler tip burnisher in just a few minutes, grind and polish it all smooth and I have the most fantastic tool for mashing the wood surface flat and getting rid of imperfections that I couldn't see when the wood was still white.

IF you are using a linseed oil type finish (oil, varnish), then after an application or two (or before), you see scratches, bumps, hard lines, etc, you can lubricate your burnisher with linseed oil and burnish the $#@* out of them.  It can sometimes require serious pressure (and be careful to not slip and make a big gougey dent across the stock!!!) but you'd be surprised at what is possible by mashing the wood down hard.  It's great for flattening off carving backgrounds that you just didn't quite get smooth enough before by chiseling/scraping/sanding.

[Habu]

Nordnecker, I had a similar problem with a piece of maple I was working on (not a rifle, but part of a carved staircase).  The second time I whiskered it, I used hot tea.  Scratches showed up nicely. 

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

One little 'trick' that might work for you...before you apply AF, after polishing your stock, apply a light coat of a thin yellow stain.  Iodine diluted works well for me.  This will amplify areas that might need more work.  And it will not interfere with the AF at all.

[bob in the woods]

Taylor beat me to it !   Yellow stain is what I use to show up defects in the surface of my maple instruments. It works extremely well, and as said,  does not interfere with stain and finish.

[WKevinD]

I apply a light coat of a thin yellow stain.  Iodine diluted works well for me.

 
Brilliant! Is the Iodine diluted with alcohol, water?

Kevin

[Long Ears]

Yellow food coloring in the water you whisker with works well. Jim Chambers told me that one. Bob

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

Yes, just plain water with some sort of pale pigment works.

[Acer Saccharum]

Nordecker, I'm not sure what style of rifle you're building, so take this with a grain of salt.

The type of gun you're building dicates the type of finish. A long range cartridge or ML Rigby rifle might ask for a sanded, varnished stock. For an 18th century flinter I would lean toward a scraped and burnished finish, with oiled or varnished stock.

For a walnut-stocked gun, mid to late 19th Century, I'd use sandpaper to finish the wood. First, I fill the grain on open pored wood, using a commercial filler. On dense walnut, I sand with oil in the later stages, letting the oil set up between applications. Final sanding is with oil, using 400 or 600 grit paper.

Don't use sandpaper to finish a Kentucky stock. Coarse sandpaper can cut really deeply, and the scratches may fill with dust from subsequent sandings with finer paper, only to show up later in the finishing process. On maple, these scratches are easy to generate, and very hard to get rid of. You don't see them until the AF is on, or the finish goes on.

Some of my Kentucky finish methods: Scrape your stocks smooth, with very sharp scrapers. After the AF, the grain will raise. On maple, I steel wool the stock a little, just enough to de-whisker the wood. (walnut I avoid steel wool, as little fibers get stuck in the open pores) Then I burnish with a variety of tools, bone, antler, brown paper bag. Repeat the scraping/burnishing if there is a second AF application, but be very gentle with the scraping.

Tool marks are found on antique rifles, as well as new ones. It shows that the gun was done in a workmanlike manner, and that minor marks are an acceptable part of a finished product.

This image shows high gloss in wear areas, and minor tool marks and surface imperfections around the carving. This is a scraped and burnished finish. AF is the stain.
http://flintrifles.files.wordpress.com/2012/06/tc-a-008.jpg

[SteveMKentucky]

...

This image shows high gloss in wear areas, and minor tool marks and surface imperfections around the carving. This is a scraped and burnished finish. AF is the stain.
http://flintrifles.files.wordpress.com/2012/06/tc-a-008.jpg

I believe there are other forces at work here, forces beyond my own being that bring this kind of work out. I can feel these vibrations walking through the halls of the Metropolitan……millions of man hours, fingers working the metals, the clays , fibers…..thousands of men, their names and faces long forgotten, but their spirit lives on through the object.

Just found this quote. Yours?  No matter it's a quote that I find deeply inspirational.  I sometimes stop as I'm working on a gun in my shop and wonder what it was like for the early American gunmakers.  Am I facing the same dilemmas that they did?  Did they tire of the rasping and filing as I do?  Am I thinking the same way?  Borders on the metaphysical.  Does it not?

[Mark Elliott]

 I use a similar approach as Acer on longrifles except that I use 0000 steel wool for the burnishing.    I have had the same problem you describe, but  I am starting to get better results.  I just have to take more time in final scraping and whiskering.    

I don't use sandpaper on longrifle stocks.   I do all the final shaping and finishing with scrapers.   These scrapers must be very sharp.   Sharpening them just with files is not adequate.   You need to use hones to polish the edges to make and keep them sharp.   Most of my final scraping is done with double pointed utility knife blades that have been flattened on a 600 grit diamond hone.   This is the easiest scraper to keep sharp and can get in most anywhere.    You need to use this or another scraper to smooth out EVERY surface.   By smooth,  I mean flat, not wavy as much as is possible, and almost translucent.    With scrapers,  there will always be some ripples along the curl on the forearms of stocks of highly figured wood.  The buttstock, wrist, and lock panels can generally be scraped pretty ripple free by using the scraper at an angle to the curl.   As you scrape, you need to vary the angle and direction in order to remove the fuzz.   I am not talking just about whiskering.   I am talking about before whiskering.   If you don't have a smooth, translucent finish before whiskering,  whiskering isn't doing anything for you.    Unless you are sanding to 400 grit or better,  you are not going to see the translucent finish I am referring to without scraping with a sharp scraper.    When I say translucent,  I mean you can see the curl clearly in the wood.   It just pops.    Your whole stock (except for the few areas that you never seem to be able to do anything with except with sandpaper)  needs to look like this before you whisker.    Then you start the whiskering.   That makes your stock fuzzy.   Whiskering involves lightly scraping with a sharp scraper to remove that fuzz returning to the translucent finish over the entire stock.   It takes me about an hour to whisker a stock properly with a scraper.    You need to whisker at least three times; not stopping until wetting the stock doesn't add a significant amount of fuzz to your translucent finish.    I whisker/burnish with 0000 steel wool after each application of AF.  All of this is intended to return you to that translucent finish.    

You can't  add finish (oil or spirit varnish) to give you that translucent finish you want.    Well, not without many coats of finish, steel wooling in between coats.    You need to have the smooth translucent surface to start.   Once you have that,  it doesn't take many coats of finish to give you the result you want.   I find the fastest way to build up an oil finish and seal your stock is to cut your oil finish half and half with turpentine.   You just keep applying this mixture until no more soaks into the stock.    The turpentine evaporates quickly, allowing you to apply coat after coat with only a few minutes of drying.   Once no more is being absorbed,  let the finish dry over night.   Then apply uncut finish by putting a drop on your finger tip and rub it in until it won't go any further.    Then you let the finish dry.    You might be able to get two or three coats on a day.   That may be enough.    You stop once you get an even semi-gloss surface.   The next to final step is to rub the finish back to a satin appearance.   You can use a course cloth, but I like the white Scotch Brite pads for this.    It is like polishing with rotten stone which you can also do, but that needs to be applied with a felt pad and parafin oil.   The white Scotch Brite pad is easier.    

The final finish step is the application of wax.  I use Renaissance Wax.

What I have described is a lot of work.   There is no short cut to getting the results you want.    It is just a lot of scraping and burnishing, over and over and over again.  

[Ryan McNabb]

The less I rasp, the easier the finishing goes.  I think long and hard before I pick up that #49.

[Nordnecker]

Thanks, everyone, for taking the time to respond to this. I'll file this info away so I can use it "next time". I anticipated that some of you would say that scraping was the way to go instead of sanding. I intended to do just that. I hate sanding for this very reason- you just never seem to get all the scratches out. I can't seem to get that nice cutting edge on a scraper, everywhere, every time, either. I tried but couldn't get the grain to cooperate in certain areas so I went down the path of no return with sand paper.
I also tried burnishing after I started to notice the scratches but I guess I didn't do that right, either.
My stock blank is a piece of highly figured red maple. There is no carving, inlay, or incised lines to pull your attention away from the defects in the wood. I did refine the comb/wrist area several times before deciding it was good enough. I used the cabinet makers rasp over and over again in that hollow area. The grain was such that on the side plate side of the stock, the grain cut beautifully with hand planes, spokeshaves, scrapers, etc, but on the lock side it was completely opposite, everything wanted to bite in. Or vise versa.
I took the offcut from the butt area and set it next to the finished stock. Little brown inclusions in the wood are obvious, and these same spots are visible as defects in the finsh. I don't mind these so much, but when I look at the stock in the bright sunshine, there are scratches or pressed fibers running straight in line with the stock contours, especially in the hollow/comb area. It almost looks like an otherwise beautiful stock was re-finished by someone who didn't know what he was doing.
I am really pleased with the color of the stock, and the sheen of the finish. I haven't rubbed it back with anything, no wax or other possible contaminant. Heck of it is, everything you guys have mentioned, from yellow dye, iodine, bone, antler, 0000 steel wool, renaissance wax, to paraffin oil, I have sitting in the shop, and didn't use any of it. I tried rubbing back a sample piece I had finnished with white scotch bright and didn't like the scratches it left. As usual, I am more confused after finishing 1 gun stock than I was before finishing one. I am looking forward to handling some guns at Dixon's this summer just for comparison.

[Acer Saccharum]

Nordecker, if you are at Dixon's, then come by the ALR tent. We will be doing Demo's all weekend, various artists showing carving, inletting, talking about gun architecture design concepts, engraving, etc.

Most of us will have a gun or two and you can look them over for finishing errors! You're not alone.

[flehto]

I've had excellent results using 220 grit paper. both for finish sanding and whiskering.  ...at times w/ a solid backing.  When whiskering the stock, green Scotchbrite is used for the carving. I use scrapers but only for shaping.

Seeing I'm retired, and have learned to have "patience", I possibly put too much time into the final sanding and whiskering, but then again, every stage of one of my  builds entails too much time.  Definitely couldn't make a living building MLers.....Fred

[Bible Totin Gun Slinger]

As I recall when my stock was new it was like what you say.
But I shot it for 30 years and gave it a belly rub with Muthers Milk, I know that sounds weird, but over time the wood turn so good.

[nchunter]

I just tried Mark Elliot's advice on using razor-scrapers on a practice board of curly maple. Wow, the results are eye-popping!  The wood gets kind of translucent like he said, and the curl really pops!

This is such an awesome forum!

[Dphariss]

I really thought I had done a good job sanding my stock. Of course I went down through the grits to 320. I whiskered it twice. I wasn't in a hurry at all. I looked at it in bright light, low light, raking light. I could not see a single scratch, but they were there, lurking, just waiting to show themselves. I coulld not see them after applying the AF, I could not see them in the first coats of finish. But that's all I can see now.
How do you guys do it? Would it be possible to use something like chalk to make the scratches stand out? Surely you wouldn't want to use spray paint, then sand it all off. Water didn't make them show up.
Hershel House sais something like, "At some point, you just have to decide that you are finished, or you could sand forever."
How do you know when you're done sanding?

When the stock is smooth enough

I start whiskering before I am done shaping sometimes and surely before the first sanding. It will show things that need to be fixed before getting too far into the sanding. I will wet a stock probably 6 times, I've never counted, before its ready for finish. I don't ever sand coarser than 120 except in very limited areas and then only now and then where I use it like a file in a backer like a piece of tubing or rod to refine a contour or remove a major flaw from some other tool. Scrapers work but these must have a smooth edge or they will form lots of scratches. I wet or dry for the finer grits not garnet etc. I also let it fill or dull so that is sands finer or even use 400 grit. This will somewhat polish the wood and show scratches that may not appear on a coarser surface.
Sometimes these  are compressed wood from some previous operation like rasping or filing. So wet the stock and put some decent heat on it to dry it. If you wait until the final sanding operations all sorts of stuff will pop up and may be difficult to fix. Then there are wood flaws than do not appear until the stain and/or finish goes on.
The wood surface should not change much if at all with the final whiskering. These shows the surface is stable and will not do strange things when its stained.

Dan

[aross007]

Thanks for all the information on this site - I think I'm approaching being overwhelmed.  I'm about to start the finishing steps on a curly ash stock - anything special or different I should think about?  I read enough about how hard it is to carve that I'm leaving it very plain, but am concerned about the open grain and whether to fill it, with what, and before or after staining.

Thanks,
Alan

[Curt Larsen]

These are all really good tips, some of which I practice.  Acer's photo is outstanding--a nice piece of work Tom.  At some time past someone recommended using microscope glass slides as scapers and then discarding them when dull.  I've tried this a view times, but mostly I depend on the very fine steel wool methods on maple.  I think I will also try the white 3M pads at some point. Still and all, I always remember my mother's statement when she was making clothes on her old treadle sewing machine--"you just don't see stripes on a race horse."

[Stophel]

Actually, I find that Ash carves very nicely.  The porous rings can visually interrupt the carving and they can also cause some difficulty in collapsing when cut, but if one is careful, it can look really, really good.

I always fill the grain completely (with finish) anyway, so yes, I would fill the ash grain.

 

[whitebear]

Nordnecker, I had a similar problem with a piece of maple I was working on (not a rifle, but part of a carved staircase).  The second time I whiskered it, I used hot tea.  Scratches showed up nicely. 

At last a good use for Hot Tea.

[bjmac]

Nordecker, I'm not sure what style of rifle you're building, so take this with a grain of salt.

The type of gun you're building dicates the type of finish. A long range cartridge or ML Rigby rifle might ask for a sanded, varnished stock. For an 18th century flinter I would lean toward a scraped and burnished finish, with oiled or varnished stock.

For a walnut-stocked gun, mid to late 19th Century, I'd use sandpaper to finish the wood. First, I fill the grain on open pored wood, using a commercial filler. On dense walnut, I sand with oil in the later stages, letting the oil set up between applications. Final sanding is with oil, using 400 or 600 grit paper.

Don't use sandpaper to finish a Kentucky stock. Coarse sandpaper can cut really deeply, and the scratches may fill with dust from subsequent sandings with finer paper, only to show up later in the finishing process. On maple, these scratches are easy to generate, and very hard to get rid of. You don't see them until the AF is on, or the finish goes on.

Some of my Kentucky finish methods: Scrape your stocks smooth, with very sharp scrapers. After the AF, the grain will raise. On maple, I steel wool the stock a little, just enough to de-whisker the wood. (walnut I avoid steel wool, as little fibers get stuck in the open pores) Then I burnish with a variety of tools, bone, antler, brown paper bag. Repeat the scraping/burnishing if there is a second AF application, but be very gentle with the scraping.

Tool marks are found on antique rifles, as well as new ones. It shows that the gun was done in a workmanlike manner, and that minor marks are an acceptable part of a finished product.

This image shows high gloss in wear areas, and minor tool marks and surface imperfections around the carving. This is a scraped and burnished finish. AF is the stain.
http://flintrifles.files.wordpress.com/2012/06/tc-a-008.jpg

acer, could you please post some more pics of this rifle?