Author Topic: Manton Lock Construction (Read 10006 times)

Ben Quearry · « **on:** June 03, 2014, 10:56:36 PM »

Greetings all
I have been pondering how the Manton or other late English flintlocks were made, specifically the lock plate. There is a bolster on one side and a flash shield, pan and frizzen support on the other. I can see forging the bolster in a die, if memory serves me well the Journal of Historical Arms Making had a chapter on forge tooling (my copy of that great book disappeared 20 years ago) and had a picture of a bolster die. Easy enough, but how did they form the details on the outside of the plate? Forging the outside in a die, and not upsetting the bolster would be difficult at best. I would like to make one myself but I need to figure out how the originals were made first. Years ago I made a couple of small pistol flintlocks. I started with a flat plate and built up the bolster and pan using an acetylene torch then filed to shape. Were the original flash sheild, pan and frizzen support forge welded onto the plate? Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

Ben, a student of Southern Mountain Rifles

Bob Roller · « **Reply #1 on:** June 04, 2014, 12:35:18 AM »

Ben.
A lot of these fine English locks were cast in sand moulds according to what the late Lynton McKenzie told me years ago.The patterns apparently were made by skilled wood carvers.There was an opinion years ago that these locks were filed from solid blocks of iron but the idea made no sense and the number produced was substantial,beyond the filers ability to produce in such numbers.
The big military locks probably used forgings but these little sporting gun locks were another thing altogether.
I have wished many times I had asked for more details from Lynton but that was my fault for taking for granted he'd be around.

Bob Roller

Mark Elliott · « **Reply #2 on:** June 04, 2014, 02:46:53 AM »

JHAT does show a die to form the bolster. Gary Brumfield told me that was the easiest way they had of forming the bolster, but in the early days they just hammered the metal down around the bolster area and did A LOT of filing. I had thought of just rolling the edge of the plate over in a right angle bend. This would work with steel, but the grain structure in wrought iron would present a problem. My intent is to make a die for the bolster for my lock work. I just need to find or weld up a piece of iron big enough for the lock plate/bolster die. You also use the die to hold the plate while welding on the iron for the pan and fence. You can shape up the pan some on the anvil after welding. The rest is filing. The CW gunshop has dies for the bridle, sear, and top jaw. While they would certainly speed things up, I don't plan to make those as I don't think they are in any way essential. I don't plan on making more than one or two completely hand made locks.

jerrywh · « **Reply #3 on:** June 04, 2014, 06:38:40 AM »

Mark.
About 20 years ago I went through this process and spend a couple of years studying how it was done. In the process I read a lot about how Manton and the makers of that era. In the process I concluded through the study that they did not cast any steel parts. Also I have worked on some original locks from that period and they are made from wrought iron. As you know wrought iron cannot be cast. Manton has hundreds of men working for him and many other self-employed persons doing sub work for him forging and filing small parts.
That being said I went about experimenting on how to do the exact thing you are thinking about. When I was young I used a coal forge but in this case I used a propane forge. It is important to note that I had to invent a one man method of doing what probably was originally a two or three man operation. The hardest part is welding the pan and bolster on to the plate as you have noted. I first forged a combination bolster and pan combination much like there is on a chambers siler style lock but with the bolster in one piece. Then I fitted the bolster and pan to the plate and held it in place with a small rivet in the area where the frizzen screw would be. But I did not fit it very tightly because when the assembly is heated to welding heat the surfaces have to be exposed somewhat in order to get hot enough to weld. The hard part is that when heating to weld the parts are small and will cool off too fast to weld before they can be placed on an anvil for hammering. Solve this by putting the anvil in the forge or very near it and heating the anvil to about 800° before you heat the lock plate and pan. With the setup as described heat up the assembly hot enough to flux with a combo of borax and pure white sand. Then bring to the welding heat and soak for a minute or so then very quickly place it on the anvil and hit it with the hammer. You will probably only get in about two blows before it cools too much. Another thing is this; you must maintain a reducing type fire in the forge. If you don’t the metal will oxidize too much and things will not work out. One more thing I have forged at least three flintlocks from scrap iron and the stirrup on the pan presents a separate problem. I solved this two different ways. One way is to form the stirrup after welding on the pan and bolster by making the pan long and using part of the extended part to cut and bend over – forming the stirrup afterwards. The other way is to make the stirrup as usual before welding and then have a special extension on the anvil that goes between the plate and the stirrup when welding on the anvil. I hope you can picture what I am trying to describe.
At one time I had all the special tools for this but I think they are all gone now. I still have one of the locks that I forged this way. I will post a photo soon. Sorry for the long explanation but there is no other way. Research steel casting. It wasn’t done until about 1830 then rarely.

D. Taylor Sapergia · « **Reply #4 on:** June 04, 2014, 07:23:24 AM »

An incredible amount of work and effort, but coming from you, Jerry, I'm not surprised.

jerrywh · « **Reply #5 on:** June 04, 2014, 07:30:17 AM »

When I did this I never had a computer. I now discover that Benjamin Huntsman discovered cast steel about 1750 in England. So ---- who knows. All the original locks I worked on were wrought iron . I did run on to a African trade musket that had a cast iron lock plate and pan.

rich pierce · « **Reply #6 on:** June 04, 2014, 02:32:00 PM »

The Journal of Historical Armsmaking has lots of info on how locks were forged. They started with a thick strap and began to forge to shape, pounding the iron into a die that helped refine and form the bolster. That's not the tricky part. The Brits and others who had an integral pan and fence etc forge welded that onto the lock plate while the whole business was in progress. Stuff like this is hard for us to imagine doing successfully, but being taught and trained from a young age makes skills attainable. We often figure they had to have cast things, but dug relics all show the grain of wrought and offer clues to today's smiths on how things were forged.

Ben Quearry · « **Reply #7 on:** June 04, 2014, 03:23:44 PM »

Thanks to all for the great information! I agree that the skills craftsmen had years ago are hard to find today. I've seen 18th century file work, done by hand, that a modern CNC milling machine would be hard pressed to reproduce. For my lock I've considered starting with a block and machining it to shape. This would be a block ~1.25" square by 5" and machining 95% away. I don't think the originals were done that way. Even if the rough shape of the flash shield/pan/frizzen stirrup is forged that still leaves a lot of filing to separate the three parts to make it a "waterproof" lock. I think a lot more filing was done in the old days than we realize. I may try forging the bolster then welding a single piece onto the outside of the plate for the flash shield/pan/stirrup and then file/hacksaw them to shape.
Thanks again

Ben

Jim Kibler · « **Reply #8 on:** June 04, 2014, 03:42:01 PM »

Steel or wrought iron couldn't be either sand or investment cast at this time. In talking to the guys from Williamsburg, they've indicated the idea pans were forge welded on English locks is an old one. They now believe the pan was formed by bending over material with the help of a die. They have been using this technique for some time.

Bob Roller · « **Reply #9 on:** June 04, 2014, 04:08:36 PM »

You would be manufacturing shavings.Anything useful would be a by product.
I think Lynton McKenzie knew what he was talking about and a lot of things were
cast from iron.Skills are obtained by practice and dedication to the job and a high level of
interest helps too.Quality tools are a must,no options there.
Bob Roller

Ben Quearry · « **Reply #10 on:** June 04, 2014, 04:58:30 PM »

It is a shame that so much of this information has been lost and must be rediscovered. I would imagine that even at the time of manufacture the methods used to make these locks was "guild knowledge" and handed down from master to apprentice. I agree with you Rob; shavings and chips would be the primary result. To make a lock today I have been thinking along the lines of starting with a strap and forging the bolster in a die then welding on the pan, but maybe that is not the way to go; what if a relatively square bar was first forged into a "T" in cross section; one short arm of the "T" becomes the bolster, the other becomes the pan. Dies, shaped fullers and hardies could refine the shape to a point where chiseling could separate the flash shield/pan/stirrup. Of course Rob is correct; casting would be a ton easier, I would just like to find a method that would be feasible for the time period and doable in my small shop; forge, anvil, drill press, bench top lathe, bench top mill and a lot of files!

Ben

Ryan McNabb · « **Reply #11 on:** June 04, 2014, 05:47:44 PM »

Forging out quite nice lock parts seems to be Mount Everest in a one man longrifle shop, but it is the work of a few moments in a professional lock shop. Give me three forges and five or six twenty year old guys who have been forging this stuff for years and the parts will pile up around your ankles in no time. Faster, by far, than the filers can deal with them.

Same with barrels.

jerrywh · « **Reply #12 on:** June 04, 2014, 06:33:51 PM »

This is the lock I hand forged as described before. I had the technology books and found that there were easier ways to do some of the things in the books.

One of the hardest things to do was learn how they made the molded edges on the lock plate and hammer. Mark Silver does this by hand with chisels and files. I made a tool to do it with.
If you were to put this process in a book form with photos almost everybody would accept it but as it is few do. I was forging locks in 1963 and still have one that I did in 1975. Now I'm too old for this stuff. My back and arms won't stand the strain. At one time I had a set of notes and drawings on how to forge flint hammers out of a round iron bar but I didn't think anybody would be interested.

heinz · « **Reply #13 on:** June 04, 2014, 06:39:50 PM »

In a shop with as much production as the Mantons I think it likely they used top and bottom dies and a trip hammer to forge the lock plate from A blank. They also could farm them out to a job shop and have them sand cast a matter of economics

jerrywh · « **Reply #14 on:** June 04, 2014, 06:53:19 PM »

I think it is very likely that the Mantons had a drop hammer forging operation with the dies. I still have a lot of doubt about the casting theory, Sand casting leaves a lot of evidence and of the Manton locks I worked on there is no evidence. I also worked on Mortimers and Eggs and found the same thing.
I never knew Lynton but My best friend and teacher knew him very well. Robert Evans is a historian and a founding member of the FEGA. He is an expert on antique weapons. I will see what he thinks.

Ben Quearry · « **Reply #15 on:** June 04, 2014, 07:17:01 PM »

I think a drop hammer and well crafted dies makes a lot of sense. How I would love to get a view of the Manton shop. I was a Tool & Die Maker before I became an Engineer so I can appreciate the value of good tooling. I am visualizing a series of progressive dies to gradually form the bolster and pan on the plate from a single bar, multiple heats. Thanks jerrywh; you have already given me some good direction to take, I wish I could have been there when you did all that work!

On a side note; is anyone going to Friendship?

Thanks
Ben

Feltwad · « **Reply #16 on:** June 04, 2014, 08:05:57 PM »

I would say that the locks used by Manton would have been bought in from the lock makers of Birmingham these locks were first rough forged by the lock forgers of Darlaston ,these were then past to the Birmingham shops of the gunlock filers and then past to the fine finishers who would polish and tune in all the lock parts
Darlaston in the mid eighteen century recorded 302 gunlock filers , 60 gunlock forgers, also 250 boys employed has gunlock forgers and filers ,cock stampers and pin forgers

Feltwad

T*O*F · « **Reply #17 on:** June 04, 2014, 08:20:23 PM »

Quote

On a side note; is anyone going to Friendship?

Already a thread on that in the shooting forum. Go there to join in.

jerrywh · « **Reply #18 on:** June 05, 2014, 01:48:47 AM »

Quote from: Feltwad on June 04, 2014, 08:05:57 PM

I would say that the locks used by Manton would have been bought in from the lock makers of Birmingham these locks were first rough forged by the lock forgers of Darlaston ,these were then past to the Birmingham shops of the gunlock filers and then past to the fine finishers who would polish and tune in all the lock parts
Darlaston in the mid eighteen century recorded 302 gunlock filers , 60 gunlock forgers, also 250 boys employed has gunlock forgers and filers ,cock stampers and pin forger.

Feltwad
I am very interested in your info. Can you give us your sources?? Jerry H

FlintFan · « **Reply #19 on:** June 05, 2014, 02:33:03 AM »

Quote from: Feltwad on June 04, 2014, 08:05:57 PM

I would say that the locks used by Manton would have been bought in from the lock makers of Birmingham these locks were first rough forged by the lock forgers of Darlaston ,these were then past to the Birmingham shops of the gunlock filers and then past to the fine finishers who would polish and tune in all the lock parts
Darlaston in the mid eighteen century recorded 302 gunlock filers , 60 gunlock forgers, also 250 boys employed has gunlock forgers and filers ,cock stampers and pin forgers

Feltwad

Lock makers Joseph Manton employed in his own shop:

John Asall, from 1792
John Bradford, from 1814
Walter Brown, from 1799
Palmer, lock filer, no date
Penn, lock filer, no date

Outside workers Joseph commission for work:
John Bradford, up to 1814 when Joseph employed him at his own shop.
Richard Bradney, Lockmaker
Joseph Brazier, Lockmaker

From "The Mantons" pages 191-192

Beyond these names given, there would have undoubtedly been lower rank workers who would have performed many of the more tedious tasks associated with lock making and any of the other steps in gunmaking.

Mark Elliott · « **Reply #20 on:** June 05, 2014, 02:34:55 AM »

I would really like some more information on how the folks at CW are currently forging lock plates, bolsters, and pan. Are they bending the metal over or are they upsetting it. Upsetting makes more sense to me for wrought iron. I can envision clamping the hot plate between two dies; one with a cutout in the top for the bolster; and one with a cutout in the top for the pan. Is this about the right idea? I have easily added a bolster to a plate by welding. I have just not tried welding on the pan yet because I hadn't made the die to accept the welded on bolster. I really didn't anticipate any trouble welding up the plate. Such welding with wrought iron is easy. I am assuming that the other approach must be easier, or at least require less skill. More direction would be appreciated.

jerrywh · « **Reply #21 on:** June 05, 2014, 03:27:12 AM »

Flintfan.
Thank you much. J.H.

News:

Author Topic: Manton Lock Construction (Read 10006 times)