And some day the bear gets you

[moleeyes36]

This was definitely not my day to get the bear.  I was annealing some sheet brass in making the entry pipe and other the ramrod pipes, so I figured I'd go ahead and anneal the butt plate to soften it so I could tap it down for the final fitting.  After heating each piece to a dull orange I quenched them in water.  Well the sheet brass came out just fine and is nice and soft.  However the cast brass butt plate cracked in several places.  I never tried annealing cast brass before and assumed (we all know what assumed means) I could do it just like sheet brass.  Was that a bad assumption or isn't it just my day?  If that is the wrong process to anneal a cast brass butt plate, how should it be done?

Mole Eyes

[KLMoors]

Oh man, that stinks!  I've had it happen too. It depends on the "brass". Some brass parts are not nice yellow brass, but some sort of yellowish, sort of brass colored, pot metal as far as I can tell.

[Dennis Glazener]

However the cast brass butt plate cracked in several places.  Angry I never tried annealing cast brass before and assumed (we all know what assumed means) I could do it just like sheet brass.  Was that a bad assumption or isn't it just my day?  If that is the wrong process to anneal a cast brass butt plate, how should it be done?

Based on my experience, Yes to the first question and on the second, when you find out please let me know!

I think what you are calling brass is really some type of bronze alloy and I have never found a way to bend it. Real brass should anneal at approx. 650 degrees and hold there for a few minutes. Dunking in water only serves to cool the brass.

Dennis

[moleeyes36]

Monday morning I'm calling Dave Keck and order one of his Bucks County butt plates.  The one he shows on the website is the same dimensions as the one from the kit that cracked, so I don't have to tear up too much track to inlet it.  Trying to make this kit look as much like a Bucks County rifle as I can with what I have to work with has been a royal pain.  I've replaced or modified all the hardware, now that the butt plate is going, except the toe plate to get parts that are more HC. 

No more kits!  I've already started gathering the parts to build a Bucks County rifle from scratch.  In the long run it will be easier and result in a more HC rifle I suspect. 

Mole Eyes

[Acer Saccharum]

SOme places cast in silicon bronze, which has a nice yellow brass look. Except that it does not hammer out, and does not anneal.

[moleeyes36]

SOme places cast in silicon bronze, which has a nice yellow brass look. Except that it does not hammer out, and does not anneal.

Acer,

I'm sure there are other good sources out there, but I'm sticking with castings from either Reaves Goehring or Dave Keck on future builds.  I figure I won't get burned with junk that way.  I'm going to try to make everything else I can.  Ron Luckenbill recently showed me how to make ram rod pipes, including entry pipes suitable for a Bucks County rifle.  I've gone through more sheet brass practicing than there is steel in a '58 Edsel, but I'm getting the hang of it. 

Mole Eyes

Mole Eyes

[JCKelly]

Agree, buy castings from Reaves & all is OK

I can only guess why your brass buttplate cracked. Most foundries add some lead to ensure that they get a sound casting.

So my guess is that the foundry who made your buttplate added more than the usual amount of lead, or the lead ended up mostly in the heel of the plate.

It melted during the anneal, which in itself isn't bad, but then the thing shrunk when quenched and the stress from that quick water cool tore apart the areas where the lead was still molten. That is a guess, as normal practice is to suggest one quench from anneal to keep from having problems with the lead.

One reason you should never heat a piece of brass to bend it is that much brass does have lead in it, and if you try to bend it while that lead is more or less molten, it will crumble.

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

You'll love the brass from Dave Keck.  No need to anneal it...it will hammer down to the wood easily, if that's how you do your butt plate. 
I would make sure the butt plate return is perfectly inlet, and around the corner down onto the plate itself.  And make sure the toe is perfect too.  Then if you need to, you can tap the brass down tight along the curve, but a little goes a long way.  But it must fit first at the toe, in the corner and on the return.

[kaintuck]

Dave or Barbie chambers, tip Curtis.....
I too have learned the hard way........once, when a big vendor was contacted about the TG having 6 sprus on it...they said I was lying!......so, they get no more brass orders from me.....

Quality 1st......make em good!

Marc

[moleeyes36]

Dave or Barbie chambers, tip Curtis.....

Actually, Mark, this is a Tip Curtis kit I have.  The wood is outstanding, the inletting of the swamped barrel is a little loose and required some bedding along the sides, the other inletting is fine.  Until I ran into this butt plate situation I'd had no problem with the quality of the metal parts.  They weren't really right for a Bucks County rifle, but I guess that's to be expected with most kits.  However, I'll say they are a heck of a lot closer to HC than Track of the Wolf's Bucks County offering.  As I said earlier, no more kits.

Mole Eyes

[coutios]

  I never quench a cast piece of brass... You never now what is on the inside... Don't care who made it. Heat it up to a dull orange/red and just let it cool... Have a cool glass of tea or something.. It's not the patterns fault it cracked, something from the foundry...

  But of course I'm just a beginner at this myself..

Regards
Dave

[Stophel]

I've had sand cast brass parts I could hammer on all day with no ill effect, and others that crumble and crack with even slight bending.  Apparently, "it just happens".  I have yet to hear any reasoning for it (too hot, too cold, poured too fast, too slow, whatever).  

I've broken one of Reeves' triggerguards before, it just came apart where I was bending it in my hands.  Others I have pounded six ways from Sunday.  It's an enigma wrapped in a soft flour shell....

Cracks can, of course, be silver soldered back together with no problem, but I figure if it broke there, it will probably break elsewhere too.

[Habu]

Cracks can, of course, be silver soldered back together with no problem, but I figure if it broke there, it will probably break elsewhere too.

Earlier this year, I ordered sand-cast yellow brass castings; I'm still not sure what I actually received.  An attempt to gently bend the (unfiled) triggerguard casting resulted in 3 pieces.  While I was considering trying to solder it, I accidentally dropped the largest piece on the floor, where it broke again.  Rather than wasting my time trying to fix it, I just boxed the parts up and returned them.  

Now I'm researching local (within 200 miles or so) foundries that can and will cast my patterns in yellow brass, or in setting up to cast my own.  

[Dave B]

I had this same experience with a butt plate a number of years ago. I was at the place of taping the final fit and it was not moving so I heated it to anneal and it cracked all over. Lead or silicone I could not tell you but when I first got it I wanted to bend it a little and it would not bend so I just used it as it was. I figure it was just a bad casting and got another one. It was dead soft. I could bend it with out trouble and it laid in just fine with out having tap it very hard. I got both from Track of the Wolf. So who ever was doing the casting for them used different alloys for the pour. The one that was soft was more deep yellow the other one a lighter tone and hard as a witches heart. I have used several of Reves Gorhrings castings and have never been disappointed.

[kutter]

The butt plate casting looks like maybe it was a 'cold pour'. The metal and/or the mould wasn't hot enough to allow the brass to remain liquid while the mould filled completely.  Lot's of wrinkle lines in the plate all the way along the surface.

 Same thing as casting bullets and you get the wrinkles, folds & lines in them where the metal has begun to solidify while the mould is still being filled.

The casting holds together when handled with care but if dropped, bent or torched & quenched, it'll separate at those weak link areas.

..and not all brass is the same. Lots of different alloys and look-a-likes.

[davec2]

Another big problem with castings is contamination of the metal during the melt.  Sloppy work in preparing the alloys, or contamination caused by using some unknown scrap, or using old crucibles, can make the final part very brittle.  I do a lot of gold castings in various karats.  Even 14 karat gold is very ductile compared to most other metals, but if I get even the tiniest speck of lead in the melt, it will make the gold so brittle you can break up a casting with your fingers.  I suspect that some of the foundries casting these ML parts are not very careful about keeping the alloys free from contaminants.

[mountainman]

Interesting topic, I just had a brass pistol triggerguard break in three pieces tonight, I noticed that it seemed to have some bronze color with it, didn't look true yellow in the metal shavings from the file. No idea who made it.