Bore cleaning

[.38 Large]

Looks like the old Fisher cleaner idea.  I know the BPCR people have been working with this lately.  Keep in a coffee can and swab between shots, then dry patch.  Should work good for loosening up stuff in those deep grooves and flushing barrel.

[brooktrout]

I don't see them as totally effective as a patch in normal cleaning and I see no advantage for cleaning modern smokeless firearms but when it comes to pushing water or sucking it up the barrel it works better than a patch as it does not get saturated.  I found it a lot neater to use that a patch as far as the water bath goes.  You can pull it all the way to the muzzle and nearly no water comes out.  With patches I always have a nice little puddle on the floor.  With these it's just a few drops.

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

I think there's more to cleaning a muzzle loading rifle barrel than just flushing it with water.  I turn down my brass cleaning jags so that I can use two thicknesses of cleaning patch flannel and still have a very tight fit in the bore.  I make them as tight as I can and still pull the rod out with just one hand.  I want that wet cloth actually scrubbing into the bottom of the grooves and the corners too, at the same time, pumping water in and out.  I place my 6" PVC cleaning pail in a large plastic tray to catch water that comes out over the top when I bring the jag to the top of the stroke, and some sometimes hits the shop floor but I could care less.  When I'm cleaning in the shop, I dry the barrel by clamping it in the vise in a leather pad, so I can really get some power on the rod.  In camp, I use a slightly thinner cleaning patch(s) since I have no vise.
Those rubber jags can't possibly do the scrubbing action that the double cloth patch does...IMHO.  I have found a way of cleaning my barrels that preserves them from oxidation/deterioration.  I am not about to risk my perfect bores on an experimental gimmick.

[RonC]

My opinions on cleaning a black powder, muzzleloader bore should be weighed with the fact that I have been getting serious about this activity for only a year and have had traditional muzzleloaders for a little over 2 years.
That said, I have seen some rifles with minor, but visible pitting in the corner of the rifling grooves. These are rifles owned by people who use only patches during the flushing of the bore (and some with pinned barrels that don't get the flushing). That pitting, however minor, concerned me enough that I use nylon, pistol bore brushes to get the crud out of the corners and crevices. Of course it took me one experience with a bronze bore brush to shift to nylon only!! My dogs learned an entirely new vocabulary during that activity. The nylon bristles change direction in the bore pretty readily, so I don't have much concern with using them.
I put the nylon bore bushes in the dishwasher between each use, otherwise I am just putting crud back into a bore if I use a dirty brush.
After shooting, I put a toothpick in the touch hole, pour a water, dish detergent and Simple Green (just a few drops) mix in the barrel, let it sit for a minute or two, then remove the toothpick and run a patch up and down the bore, driving the water out the touch hole. I will add more of the mix and do that a second time until the water runs clear from the touch hole.
At home, I put the rifle in a padded carpenter's vise, add some of the mix, and use the clean nylon bore brush. The water that comes out looks dirty again. (It was tough decision getting that vise because I told my wife I have no vices. )
Then I run several dry patches through and finish off with "*Fluid Film" corrosion protection on a patch and run a few more dry patches so that only a residual film is left in the bore.
Then, after all that work, I take a nap.
Ron

[sloe bear]

 I too like tepid water but on a occasion I have even gave the old girl a drink of beer when I didn't have a good water supply it all works the same a dirty job but we all have to do it. just keep it cleaned after you shoot and before it goes back on the rack I always use a light coat of gun oil to help prevent rust. but here in Idaho we have a desert like climate most of the time very low humidity not like else where less of a chance of rust forming.

[jamesthomas]

 RonC, I also use a nylon brush to help get the bore clean. I run the brush up an down the barrel and then dump the debris out. Then I use tepid water with a few drops of Dawn to clean the barrel. Using that nylon brush has speeded up the cleaning and It takes me about 6 patches to clean her up. I use Barricade for short term rust protection (less than 2 weeks), for longer term I use Rig Gun Grease.

[moleeyes36]

Discussions on bore cleaning are like discussions on patch lubes.  Everyone has a different take on it and nobody can convince the others that his method is best.  Basically, if it works for you then you have the best approach (for yourself).  In the end that's all you really need.

Mole Eyes

[mjm46@bellsouth.net]

It seems like there are as many cleaning methods as there are shooters. Each and every one a little different.

Many claim that hot water "flash rusts" the bore. I want to know how the flash rust only appears in the bore and not on the outside of the barrel??? I've got unbrowned barrels and they don't rust on the outside either. Think about it.

Here's my method: To me water rusts steel. So to get the barrel as dry as possible as quick as possible. I use hot tap water. Not boiling but hot that it's uncomfortable to hold your hand in it. This will dry faster than cold water. I put dish wash in the water, and I rinse with clean water. Then I spray WD-40 in the bore and let it sit muzzle down while I attend to the lock. When I go back to the bore a dry clean patch to remove WD-40 then I oil the barrel with Rem oil. After this treatment the bore is clean and oiled.

WD-40 is not an oil it is a Water Displacement formula. It will push the water out and then dry. Then oil the bore with the oil or rust preventive of your choice. Every one has their own favorite here as well.

[Scout]

OK , my turn...............

I use to use hot water and DID get the flash rust until I was schooled by some folks on this site.

First I take off the lock, remove the flint and put in a can of soapy water. I then put a toothpick in the barrel vent and fill with cool water and let it sit for about 20 minutes or so. During that time I then take the lock and scrub with a toothbrush until clean, rinse with water and put it in my toaster oven on warm for a few minutes to dry. I then oil it with Ballistol and Rig grease all the contact points. I empty the barrel and refill 2 or 3 times until the water comes out clean. I then use some soapy water and patches until clean, then I dry with a few patches. I put a shot of Ballistol in the barrel to coat the breechplug and vent area I then take a patch and use Rigs grease to coat the rest of the barrel. I install the lock and flint and then I wipe the exterior with a lightly oiled rag. She's then ready to go for next time.

[Natureboy]

  I've read numerous opinions about using animal-fat lubes, and treating the barrel like it's a cast iron frying pan, never using soap or detergent which
would remove the "seasoning" of the steel.  I use cast-iron pans, and this makes sense to me.  I've started to use Bore Butter, which I assume is like bear grease, only you don't have to bother any bears to get it.  Would WD-40, a proven water disperser, also remove the seasoning and lead to the sort of fouling that a grease-seasoned bore would prevent?  I spray my lock, once scrubbed clean in hot water, with WD-40, and use a can of compressed air that I use in the darkroom for blowing the dust off negatives.  I would use WD in the bore if it won't interfere with my "cook's" seasoning of the barrel.  The folks who swear by the "pan seasoning" method say that you should never use petroleum products, which they say creates fouling.  There seems to be an unlimited number of opinions about this issue.

[drago]

I have heard from numerous people that don't use bore butter. Barrels are not cast iron pots and do not need seasoning, while a thin oil might impregnate the metal if soaked long enough the area between the molecules of the metal are too tight to get something like bore butter between the molecules. It will however build up and clog your bore. Water neutralizes the salts and corrosives left by burned black powder and is the main ingredient in most store bought cleaners. Barrels need to be cleaned and oiled to protect them not seasoned. I think the makers of bore butter came up with seasoning  to sell product.

[Natureboy]

  Drago, do you mean to say that an American corporation would create a need for a product that's unnecessary?  I'm shocked!  Just like those sneaky sorts who created percussion caps so shooters would have to go to the store to get more of them.

[drago]

First it was caps then suppository types, now you can't shoot without stopping at wally world. Of course we all know it's best for us all. It just works out that someone makes lots of money.

[Natureboy]

  But we BP shooters aren't paying $1-$2 per shot.  I figure it's less than a quarter per round--balls are about 16 cents each, powder around $16 per pound, and you get a lot of rounds out of a pound of powder.  Plus, we're having more fun, shooting slowly and following an age-old tradition, one the second amendment was written for.  So it's a bit messy and makes a lot of smoke--it's all fun and good.

[brooktrout]

I'll quickly admit to being one of the least well informed about BP shooting.  So at the risk of showing my lack of experience here's my conclusions thus far.

Proper cleaning requires water and some sort of detergent. To prevent rust, the bore needs to be DRY.  Oil over a wet barrel won't prevent rust. That is critical, seemingly obvious but not as simple to achieve as one might think.  "Flash rust".  My search on this is pretty conclusive.  Flash rust is a term which characterizes minor surface rust which is "quick" to form, easy to remove and has no long term effects.  And it's caused by moisture (aka water).  This surface rust is not the effect of hot water OR cold water but just water. 
A WD type product used after cleaning can aid drying but warm sunlight on the barrel can do the same.  I suspect a blast of air from your garage compressor might also contribute to drying.  In fact, I'll bet there are some who actually do this but have not spoken up yet.  However, moist air is not as good as dry heat.

Once you have a dry bore, any number of post cleaning products will work.  Use whatever makes you happy!  I agree with several who said how odd it is that we swear by specific methods and specific products.  "Tried and true"....but not the only way to skin this cat.

[Standing Bear]

  But we BP shooters aren't paying $1-$2 per shot.  I figure it's less than a quarter per round--balls are about 16 cents each, powder around $16 per pound, and you get a lot of rounds out of a pound of powder.  Plus, we're having more fun, shooting slowly and following an age-old tradition, one the second amendment was written for.  So it's a bit messy and makes a lot of smoke--it's all fun and good.

Lead pipe $0.75/lb.  approx. 75 .395 balls/lb = $0.01 per ball.  pot and molds long time amortized.

Powder using your $16  50 gr per shot or 140 shots per lb = $0.11

Flints $2 average 100 shots = $0.02

Total $0.14 per shot.  A little less than half the cost of using store bought balls and caps.  Costs about $7 for me to spend a morning banging away with the .40 flinter
TC

[hanshi]

At the range before I leave for home I run a wet patch followed by a couple of dry patches.  When I get home I do a serious cleanup, lock, stock and barrel.

[Natureboy]

  Standing Bear,  I was just guessing at the cost of shooting.  Now that you've shown that it's even cheaper than I thought, I'll just shoot more.  Thanks!
I'll admit that I buy the swaged round balls.  My dad and I used to make our own bullets and re-load, except for the military ammo we used in the M1.  I don't think we ever made anything as good as the factories can, and these days I don't have the gear to melt the lead.  I'm thinking of making my own flints, though, because that looks like fun.

[Daryl]

   Unfortunately,I don't have a compressor.  After thoroughly submerging my lock in a pot of cold water and brushing clean a la Daryls,on a doubled paper towel I blow the lock out with a steady stream of wd40. Let it sit a few seconds and hit it again, then wipe dry, lube and re-install. BORE CLEANING...boy do I catch a lot of flack around here how I do it. Daryls calls it the "Alternate Method", Taylor calls is it "the shitting with your pants on" method! Others have worse names.Even so,others have worse methods. I use it only because I have a pinned barrel and bolted tang.Hooked breach type I pump flush,barrel in a bucket. With a pinned custom rifle I'm paranoid of screwing up the wood pushing pins that I see double of! The pump flush method,in my humble opinion, is faster and far more thorough the SWYPO method.

hahahahahahaha!

boys ' girls, there is absolutely NO reason to use soap or a detergent to clean your black powder guns - NONE/NADDA/NOPE

[Standing Bear]

Agreed. Spit or tap water
TC

[Dphariss]

  I've read numerous opinions about using animal-fat lubes, and treating the barrel like it's a cast iron frying pan, never using soap or detergent which
would remove the "seasoning" of the steel.  I use cast-iron pans, and this makes sense to me.  I've started to use Bore Butter, which I assume is like bear grease, only you don't have to bother any bears to get it.  Would WD-40, a proven water disperser, also remove the seasoning and lead to the sort of fouling that a grease-seasoned bore would prevent?  I spray my lock, once scrubbed clean in hot water, with WD-40, and use a can of compressed air that I use in the darkroom for blowing the dust off negatives.  I would use WD in the bore if it won't interfere with my "cook's" seasoning of the barrel.  The folks who swear by the "pan seasoning" method say that you should never use petroleum products, which they say creates fouling.  There seems to be an unlimited number of opinions about this issue.

Natural lubes, Bear oil, tallow, Sperm Whale oil or Neatsfoot oil (now lard oil I have read) DO NOT build up in the bore, period, at least not with any cleaning that will clean the bore. Where this seasoning the bore drivel came from I can't recall but it did not appear until some of the commercial lubes came on the market. It will eventually effect accuracy at best and rot the bore out at worst.
In any event its SNAKE OIL salemanship.

I would also point out that BLACKPOWDER fouling's corrosive elements will easily dissolve in water.  If the shooter has a pinned barrel with no hooked breech then plug the nipple/vent and pour about 6-10" of tepid water in the bore, plug with a finger or thumb and up end the gun several times then dump out the water. Wet patch with a loose fitting patch. Then repeat the slosh and dump. I do this about 3-4 times then wet patch till I am happy then dry the bore. Water will wash away the corrosive elements with the slosh and dump. Using a tight fitting patch with water in the bore will probably force water past the plug (I use a round toothpick for flint guns) or blow it out. Once I get the bore less than dripping I use tighter fitting wet patches I use a worm to the run a wet patch to the breech face and then twist it to clean the end of the bore. When the wet patches are clean the bore is clean. After maybe 2-3 dry patches I pull the plug to produce air flow to held dry the bore.
Its common as the bore drys to get black iron oxide on the patches the lubrication of the water on the wet patches prevents this. If the patches with black on them turn to red iron oxide when dry in a day or two its only iron.  If grey then its powder fouling. Trying to clean the iron oxide out of a bore will drive you nuts. I pull the plug at about the 3rd dry patch and the airflow helps dry the bore.
Oil well (don't force oil out the vent though), store muzzle down over night to drain the excess oil into a folded paper towel and not into the stock. If really anal wipe it again to check. Sometimes a penetrating protectant like G-96 will pull some more oxide out as it drains unless there is a lot do not worry.
Now this process is ONLY for BP if you use some weird substitute you are on your own. Some are non-corrosive some very aggressive.

Locks I wash it water, wipe brush where needed then blow dry then oil and grease as needed. Spray bottle works good for this.
Dan

[bob in the woods]

Some 20 years ago, I was distressed at what I found when cleaning after using the main [ at the time] available substitute black powder. I wrote a letter to Sam Fadala describing my findings, which were basically this.....Clean the bore till patches come out basically white. Come back next day and get fouling/rusty patches ..clean again until white patches ...back the next day-same thing, back the next day ...same thing.  I sent him a sheet of paper with the first patch of the day stapled to it. Period of time was over 5 days.  Each patch had traces of fouling; even the 5th day  .  Anyone who uses a substitute powder should try this experiment for themselves; it is an eye opener.

[brooktrout]

" Spit or tap water"


Wellll , so if spit is OK I take it that you might actually take a wiz down the barrel and that would work as well?

[frontier gander]

ive used bp subs for years. Just like with black powder, if you do a $#@* job at cleaning or do not dry it out properly, its going to rust in the bore. Flash rust is what gets most folks.

rig or barricade work excellent at keeping rust away.

[bob in the woods]

Mr F. Gander, I was not insulting those who use the substitutes; merely cautioning that the cleaning regimen needs be stringent.  I stress that I did get white patches from the bore..it had every indication of being clean, however coming back in a day or two, there was fouling/rust on the patch.  I will try and find the letter from Sam in response.