Bore cleaning

[Natureboy]

  I mostly use Dan's cleaning method, pouring warm water down the barrel, but I let it set for a few minutes and then pour some out (toothpick in vent) and then upend the barrel back and forth to slosh the water, making sure to hit everything in reach with the buttstock and muzzle.  Then I scrape the breechplug and do the water thing a few more times.  I do use black powder solvent on patches, though, so do you think it's an unnecessary expense?  I run patches until they come out Army clean, and then oil the barrel.  Your practice of using a blow dryer on the lock works well, too, and it amuses my wife.

[C. Cash]

I had a Renegade that would flash rust even with cold water.  I cant explain it but it would form instantly upon drying the barrel with a dry patch.  Very strange.  To prevent this, especially with my longrifle, I use a good healthy dose of ballistol in a jug of spring water.    I tooth pick the touch hole and pump the water around, dumping and refilling with fresh water and changing out the flannel patches.  As I begin to get clean patches, a couple of times I will pull the tooth pick and push the the fluid filling the barrel out of the touch hole with force, wiping up any excess that might get in the lock mortise with Q tips.  I also use the same solution to clean the lock with a patch and q tips.  I oil with the pure form of ballistol all metal sufaces and friction points.  In humid weather, the Ballistol will need a rewipe every week or two and one down the spout.  Ps...I hate cleaning jags.  I feel like a patch will get in the grooves better with a standard slotted brass rod tip and less time spent cleaning.  Do NOT use plastic tips, as they will break off at inopportune times snd will render your ramrod useless as a wiping tool untill you drill out the plastic.  A good lube like LHV lube(Mr. FLINTLOCKS) seems to make cleanup so much easier overall.

[Dphariss]

Mr F. Gander, I was not insulting those who use the substitutes; merely cautioning that the cleaning regimen needs be stringent.  I stress that I did get white patches from the bore..it had every indication of being clean, however coming back in a day or two, there was fouling/rust on the patch.  I will try and find the letter from Sam in response.

I just deleted a long post. It was basically a recap of what I have posted in the past. I was told about this stuff 30 odd years ago by an expert in the field of BP and everything he told me then and predicted has come true and none of it is desirable. I used it in company guns for testing enough to prove to me that I would never use it in my guns and have actually flushed the stuff when I won it as a prize at a match. Could not even give it away in good conscience.
Everything I have posted on the subject is actual observation over the years or that of people I trust. Its not guess work or animosity.
Dan

[Pete G.]

Hey Dan, dump it in the garden next time. Makes pretty good fertilizer.

[Nate McKenzie]

Here's my favorite method.  http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=24312.0

[Kermit]

WD-40 and compressed air--just as the Minutemen cleaned their muskets. Yup.

[frontier gander]

that TOW is some good stuff, I enjoy swabbing with it. Now if only Nate could tell me where he got that rough cut log siding and the stain used, I'd be set! 

[Nate McKenzie]

Its not siding. Its the real McCoy on our rough-cut log home. The stain is a preservative and the color is called honey. Its about 25 years old now.

[WadePatton]

...I don't think we ever made anything as good as the factories can
... I'm thinking of making my own flints, though, because that looks like fun.

Not hard to make something better than factories, not easy to do it faster.

"PaleomanJim" of youtube makes flint knapping look silly easy*.  I just don't have the right rocks for it, not yet....

*Just checked, he has new beginner series up. Oh no.

[James Wilson Everett]

Guys,

Now for my two cents.  This applies to wrought iron barrels, steel barrels are significantly different in the way they should be treated.

1.  Wrought iron is really quite corrosion resistant, so you do not get that bright orange "surprise".  This is especially true when water is in contact with wrought iron.  When doing visitor show-n-tells I just leave the rifling machine with barrel outside where it almost always gets wet from rain or dew - and no rust forms on the wrought iron (no orange surprise).

2.  Wrought iron is a bit porous as compared to steel.  Wrought iron is a physical combination of pure iron and a silica slag, the slag is present in very thin filaments and are often difficult to see in good refined iron.  But, this makes the surface porous, at least slightly so and it gives black powder residue lots of hiding places.

3.  After shooting a wrought iron barrel I clean with water as many above have noted, until I get a resulting white patch and follow with oiled patches.  However, the next day and many following days a re-clean with an oiled patch and still remove some BP residue that apparently migrates out of the porosity.  This is dark colored, never orange rust colored.

4.  So, cleaning a real wrought iron barrel is about a week long process.  While cleaning a modern steel barrel can be done in a much shorter time.

Jim

[Daryl]

Much after-rust and after-fouling comes out of, I imagine, the new 'pores' left by black powder substitutes, in steel barrels.

[rfd]

nothing gets more chatter, and heated opinions, from muzzleloaders than how tubes need to be cleaned, and when.

to each their own, here's my views on what works for me ...

i almost never use plain water, whether hot, warm or cold.

i use dry "dutch" lube formula patch material, cut to size at the muzzle.  i clear out the barrel on every 1 to 2 firings with a dutch moose milk (dmm) *moistened* (not wet) patch, in and out the tube.

after a shooting session, liberal use of dmm to clean the tube, vent and lock (barrel not removed, lock removed).

the details ...

DUTCH LUBE - for pre-lubing patches
**********
6 parts of water and 1 part of Ballistol (the percentage of water can be modified up or down as need be)

patch strips are about 1.5" x 18" long, 100% cotton or linen only, sized to work well with the ball diameter in use
 
Dutch Lube directions -  lay the strips of cloth into the Dutch Lube, swirl around and allow a few minutes to fully saturate, lift up one strip at a time and use two fingers of your hand to compress the cloth as you pull through which will remove all the excess lube, lay the strips down FLAT to dry off ... the water will evaporate but the oil will remain in the cloth ... the cured patch cloth will feel totally dry to the touch! 

sizing of the lubed patch and ball diameter is critical and requires some testing for best fit/accuracy.

DUTCH MOOSE MILK - for cleaning out the barrel after shooting black powder - after each shot and after a shooting session
****************
1 part Ballistol
1 part Lestoil or Pinesol
2 parts hydrogen peroxide
20 parts water

Moose Milk usage -

1. Between Every Shot - lightly saturate a patch, it should not be wet, just damp, and run it down and up the barrel only ONCE.  Clean the pan and touch hole.  Reload.

2. After Every Shooting Session - run wet patches down the barrel until they come relatively "clean", run down a few dry patches, last patch should be saturated with WD-40, and leave that patch/ramrod down the barrel.  Remove the lock and clean with Moose Milk, dry off the lock, re-install.  check the patch after a day or two.

[Kaintuckkee]

I am from the cold water school of cleaning to,it works ,period...I have ML barrels that are several years old that have no rust or pitting in them...I always follow up with WD40 to

[WadePatton]

Didja ever do an ex spear mint?

Well i just did.

Seeing as how my notion of "pre-cut" patches is re-shooting recovered cut-at-muzzle patches.

And seeing as how i just pulled one of them dryball thingies and had a nice cut patch there all crusty with crud-which would be re-loaded to be shot properly at least once!


I just

experimented with some of the notions presented in this thread.

I took that gnasty patch and soaked it in water-warm as there is no metal involved and i wanted maximum h2o action.  Then i swished and washed it around, cleaning it in that puddle of water.  The water got a little gray.

I then (without changing the water) added a dash of popular (4-letter word) dish liquid to see if the water would darken any further (evidence of more cleaning).  none.

I then soaked the patch with a moose milk recipe (not sure which one, smells like a pine tree-i made it years ago and i am a DSchultz pamphlet owner).  no change.  none.

So then therefore I'll stick to my linen tow and water cleaning followed by water displacement with that popular water displacement oil and then real oil if I'm not going out again next day or two.  I do like to re-wipe for a day or two.  

Conclusion: soap don't help clean a pulled patch (db after 16 shots-no wiping) whatsoever, so therefore I'll just use it for hands and dishes and the dogs and won't waste any more in a bbl.

Once again,





Daryl was right.  

[Daryl]

Thanks, Wade, but I would phrase that differently by saying that that 150 year old British Gun Maker, Holland and Holland, was right.

I was merely the messenger of what they taught us in a note to my double gun collector friend, back in the late 70's. 

[brooktrout]

An endless thread it seems.  So I did my own experiment and submit it was much more scientific that the one above.  I took 4 patches recovered from the ground after shooting the same gun, same loads.  I put about 1 cup of water in four different containers.  One was pure "cold water", one warm water, one cold with a small dash of detergent and the last was warm with a small dash of detergent.  Into each went a patch.  No "washing action" of any kind for maybe an hour, then each container was simply swirled around.  Guess which showed almost NO sign of "dirty" water?  The cold, no detergent one!  Guess which showed the most dirty water?  Warm with detergent one.  Furthermore, the patches in water with no detergent were suspended just below the surface while the ones with detergent were on the bottom of the container.  THAT is clear evidence that the oil on the patch was not "cleaned" by water along and thus was more buoyant than the patches which were in the detergent water.  Now, like another said, do whatever makes YOUR socks go up and down but as for me, I will use a small amount of detergent.  Can you get them clean with water only?  Probably but it might take longer.  BTW, I doubt it matters as to cold, warm or hot water but the use of a detergent seems to be obviously beneficial.

OH, BTW, when you are done cleaning you gun, do you use "soap" and water to clean your hands?  Or just water only!  I see, soap and water...hummmm.

And I'll add just one more small thing.  The water in the containers with detergent discolored almost immediately and never seemed to show evidence that more dirt was coming out of the patch over time.  The effect of the detergent was immediate and all the cleaning that was done was probably achieved in the first few seconds of the patch being placed in the water.

So, I just wonder what Holland and Holland might have told us if they would have had modern day detergent 150 years ago?

[brooktrout]

Just another point I have noted on bore cleaning.  In the beginning I did not scrape the breech.  On the last few outings I have scraped it just before the cleaning begins.  Seems to always be a small amount of fouling that I get out.  I suspect that given the nature of a jag's end just running a patched jag down will tend to leave a little debris in place, so probably a good idea to scrape it?

[WadePatton]

I make my own soap so it doesn't count.  Don't assume.  

Also i never expected water only to clean oily anything, only the residue of powder.  I trust the tow to clean the breechface, it is not like a patched jag.

Thanks for sharing your egg spearmint.  

[WadePatton]

Thanks, Wade, but I would phrase that differently by saying that that 150 year old British Gun Maker, Holland and Holland, was right.

I was merely the messenger of what they taught us in a note to my double gun collector friend, back in the late 70's. 

Nothing new under the sun.  Certainly pass credit back up the line as far as we are able to remember to ...now what was it we were remembering?

[Daryl]

An endless thread it seems.  So I did my own experiment and submit it was much more scientific that the one above.  I took 4 patches recovered from the ground after shooting the same gun, same loads.  I put about 1 cup of water in four different containers.  One was pure "cold water", one warm water, one cold with a small dash of detergent and the last was warm with a small dash of detergent.  Into each went a patch.  No "washing action" of any kind for maybe an hour, then each container was simply swirled around.  Guess which showed almost NO sign of "dirty" water?  The cold, no detergent one!  Guess which showed the most dirty water?  Warm with detergent one.  Furthermore, the patches in water with no detergent were suspended just below the surface while the ones with detergent were on the bottom of the container.  THAT is clear evidence that the oil on the patch was not "cleaned" by water along and thus was more buoyant than the patches which were in the detergent water.  Now, like another said, do whatever makes YOUR socks go up and down but as for me, I will use a small amount of detergent.  Can you get them clean with water only?  Probably but it might take longer.  BTW, I doubt it matters as to cold, warm or hot water but the use of a detergent seems to be obviously beneficial.

OH, BTW, when you are done cleaning you gun, do you use "soap" and water to clean your hands?  Or just water only!  I see, soap and water...hummmm.

And I'll add just one more small thing.  The water in the containers with detergent discolored almost immediately and never seemed to show evidence that more dirt was coming out of the patch over time.  The effect of the detergent was immediate and all the cleaning that was done was probably achieved in the first few seconds of the patch being placed in the water.

So, I just wonder what Holland and Holland might have told us if they would have had modern day detergent 150 years ago?

No one ever said for you to use straight water for cleaning oily patches, any more than saying to use straight water for cleaning your hands.

Your test is about as useful in this discussion as saying to use water instead of oil in your crankcase to keep your engine cool- yes- just as useful.

When Holland and Holland sent that letter to my friend in the late 1970's I suspect they had detergents and soaps available - what they were concerned about was cleaning barrels of black powder fouling, not washing their hands that were soiled with oil and grease. They were concerned about the flash rusting that happens when hot water and soaps are used to clean black powder fouled bores - their rifles are not the cheap rifles of today being used by ANYONE here - they were fearful for maintaining the excellent condition of the $20,000.00 to $80,000 dollar rifles and shotguns that my friend was shooting - God (and the mfgr's) only know what chemicals are in today's Detergents. If you guys are foolish enough to put that $#*& in your barrels - go for it - you deserve the consequences.

Another thing - when I clean my black powder rifle barrels, there is no more fouling to get out of them - there is no after rust, there is no fouling on the breech plug's face, in the caplock flash channel nor in the vent of the flinters - NO fouling left - anywhere. I use only cool or cold tap water for cleaning - no soaps, no solvents and I use only WD40 as an after flush and rust preventative - no rust - in our 50% average humidity climate here in B.C. I use this system after shooting with WWWF + neetsfoot oil, I use it after shooting with neetsfoot oiled patches and I use it after shooting with Track's mink oil. lubed patches - no fouling left - EVER and hasn't been since I stated this regime in 1977.  HOEWEVER - prior to that, I used hot water with detergents or soap and I got flash rusting - and I got after rust in my TC rifle and some of Bauska's barrels that I was using. After reading that letter from H&H and switching to their methods of cleaning, which by the way was the easiest and quickest of all ways to clean my barrels and guns, I never - EVER got any more flash rusting nor rusting of any sort.  Gee- maybe that company actually knows more than brooktrout?? do ya think?

Cleaning an oiled patch is not the same bloody thing as cleaning a black powder fouled bore - even if that barrel was fired with oiled patches - obviously - cannot be, or plain water would not have cleaned them so well - for centuries. DOH! to coin a phrase.

[WadePatton]

Always liked them Holland ampersand Holland boys.   

[Vomitus]

    Notice: Not many gunbuilders or barrel makers are chiming in here. Go ahead and use soap and hot water. It feeds these guys! lmao!

[smylee grouch]

My thoughts about using soap in the cleaning water is that the soap has a bunch of stuff that will cause your barrel harm, water does not and will clean just as good. Use a WD40 product after your done whichever method you use. I have had the same experiences with flash rusting as Daryl and havent had any more since I switched to cold or cool plain water. Some people seem to over do something that is realy quite simple. The old ways are the best ways IMHO.

[brooktrout]

So enlighten me grouch.  What EXACTLY is in liquid detergent (NOT soap) that will cause your barrel harm.  Very interested in that as I sort of feel that what's in black powder after ignition has a greater tendency to cause your barrel harm.

[Vomitus]

One word,Brooky: SALT.