Bore cleaning

[smylee grouch]

I think whats in the residue after you shoot real black is why we clean with plain water as plain water will clean without adding any more harmfull elements to the barrel. My opiion is that soap will add those elements that will need to be flushed out so you in fact have to clean your barrel of the black powder and soap residue. What those elements are will vary I supose with what soap you use. I am not a chemist but have read of some of the things used in the soap making process like lye for one and this makes me uneasy to use in my barrel when I have plain water that will do the job now just as it has done for ever. I dont need new and improved when I have old and reliable.

[brooktrout]

Well, like I clearly said (but not specifically in this fashion)...whatever you are happy with and works for you!  But liquid detergent does not contain lye as in the compound used in old time soap making.

As to "SALT".  If by "salt" you mean NaCl.  I suppose it may exist in liquid detergent.

BUT here is a BIG part of the picture.  The primary chemicals which are dissolved  in H20 are:

Na (+ion), Cl (- ion), K (+ ion), Mg (+2) and Ca also (+2)

Given this, the reality is that Na and Cl can combine and thus you have NaCl !  So "Salt" is also in your regular ole water.

The primary ingredient in liquid detergent is phosphate (PO4/3) and chemically speaking it is a "salt".  "Detergent" (products in question) basically works through the use of cationic, anionic and non-ionic reactions.  Negative and positive ions attracting other negative and positive ions and suspended in a non-ionic element.  In other words....it's magic!  (CVA has a "new" cleaning agent which uses this ionic approach and no "water" is used in the cleaning process at all.)

I don't know the chemical formula of "Dawn" but I'll venture that there is nothing in it that is worse for the barrel than the "mineral salts" in water.  It is those compounds that contribute to "oxidization".  And that's what causes rust.

Now, Mr. grouch does have a good point.  You do not want to leave bubbles in your barrel so following the use of any detergent it would still require a clear water flush.  Extra step?  Maybe but the question to me is how many clear water flushes are required to remove the same amount of fouling that can be removed with maybe a single "soapy" cleaning.

While I have only been shooting BP for a short time I can tell you that I have done a powerful lot of cleaning in that time.  "Easy" is not my goal.  Effective is!  I will continue to try different approaches but in the end what yields a clean bore and stays rust free is what I seek.  Right now, I like the bubbles!  And just a PS for my pal Daryl.  The ionic approach to cleaning is a product of the 80's and it was NOT quickly accepted by the industry until some time in the late 80's.  Also, Daryl, those patches I experimented with were recovered after firing so they contained all the bad stuff that was also in the barrel not just "oily patches".  I think what several people are missing is that I will admit that I don't hold any approach as sacred.  And I am open to considering anything (except moose milk)!  Comments are welcomed but spare me the lectures.

[mjm46@bellsouth.net]

Just an observation.

I haven't seen anyone mention a clean water rinse for their bore after their initial cleaning. I am a firm believer in using warm water with soap to clean my barrel. But I also do a clean water rinse after the initial wash.

After the bore is dry using several patches. I spray a liberal amount of water displacement formula into the bore and let it sit for a while muzzle down, while I clean the lock. I finish it with another dry patch or two to remove the WD-40 and then good gun oil to finish.

After living in the humid New England sea coast area, and now in the Hot-N-Humid Southeast. Never had a rusty barrel in 40 years of shooting these rifles.

I think I'll keep doing it my way.  Thank you!

[smylee grouch]

Brooktrout, you have your cleaning method that seems to work for you and I must say many others too. Lots of different ways to do this and if it works for you, great. I post were , I hope, meant to inform others of how I have done it with outstanding results since the 60s. Mr. Holland seems to have endorsed the same method. If you take any of this as an lecture, you are reading it wrong. Best wishes. 

[Natureboy]

I wanted to try Moose Milk in my flinter, but I couldn't get the moose to stand still long enough.  Cold water will have to do.

[Leatherbark]

One other thing to try even with your cleaning regimen is after you run your dry patches down squirt some WD-40 into the bore and some on a patch and run it back and forth.  Then use your oil.  When I do this after using hot water I'll swear I can go back 2 weeks later and run a patch down the barrel and it comes out clean as a whistle.  My buddies who only oil after using hot water has rust on their patches bad.  I'm about to talk them into using WD-40 as I believe it gets out the final bit of water that you think is out of there but is not.  But then again I use either CLP or Mobil 1 to oil with and maybe that is why I don't get rust.

Bb

[bob in the woods]

I use cool or warm water, and then dry the bore. A squirt of WD 40 on a patch to wipe the bore and then a patch with bear oil.  No rust after 1000's of rounds  in every kind of weather you can think of.

[WadePatton]

One other thing to try even with your cleaning regimen is after you run your dry patches down squirt some WD-40 into the bore and some on a patch and run it back and forth.  Then use your oil.  ...
Bb

That is exactly the best use for Water Displacement formula #40.  It used to be good for starting engines, but they took most of the fire out of it. 

I spray it liberally into the bore, smear it around with tow, and place gun muzzle down for a few hours or overnight before re-wiping and oiling proper.

Beginning to really like the tow.  Keep re-using the same bits.  Easy to clean and dry and reuse.  Don't even know where the jag made off too.  Will never miss cutting cleaning patches.

[Topknot]

For me, after cleaning I dry the bore until dry and wipe out the clean-out plug with a half piece of a pipe cleaner . Then I wipe out the nipple seat hole with a small piece of twisted paper towel until dry. I then flush the bore with industrial grade 99% pure isopropyl alcohol since I have an unending supply which I aquire from a cousin of mine. I then repeat the process of drying the bore and clean-out and nipple seat. After getting everything totally dry, I apply liberally ballistol to the bore until it runs out the nipple hole and clean-out screw and on all parts on the outside of the rifle, if I plan on using the gun in the next week or two. If planning on possibly storing my gun long term I use Rig instead. Never had a problem.

                                                                      topknot

[oldways]

Anyone use or try plain ole rubbing alcohol?

[hermdog]

Have read all these comments and am amazed at how difficult we can make things. Seems like we overthink everything. I have been shooting and cleaning blackpowder guns since the late 60's. Hot water is the way to go, no soap or detergents. Hot water aids in drying the barrel. I used to put the barrel in the bathtub. Rinse the barrel with hot tap water while filling the tub with enough water to cover the barrel. Swab with a patch or swab until clean. Barrel will be hot to the touch and will dry quickly. If you are concerned about moisture you can run an alchohol soaked patch down the bore and this will insure it is dry. The alchohol helps evaporate any remaining moisture. If using a pinned barrel just fill the barrel part way with water and slosh around then swab. I have also used the bucket and swab method which works just as well.
I have worked in water treatment for over 30 years and I can tell you there are not enough salts in tap water to cause any harm to a gun barrel. Well water has the same salts and minerals as city water. Hot water actually has less salts because heated water drops some of the dissolved minerals from the water, that's why you have junk in the bottom of your water heater. Spring water, well water, creek water or tap water, it doesn't matter.
Get it hot, get it clean, get it dry and use some type of oil to seal out the moisture for storage. It's that simple.

[sqrldog]

Yep every one is making this to hard and complicated. Touch hole plugged with a toothpick shot of soapy water (about enough to cover powder fowling in bottom of bore) let it sit for a few minutes. Finger over muzzle slosh mixture up and down bore by tipping muzzle down. Pour the crud out. Tak toothpick out. Put rag or paper towel under cock next to touchhole. Wet patch with soapy water wipe bore. Follow with clean patch. Dry bore and oil with your favorite oil. Take lock out clean and oil put back in rifle. A day or two later check bore with an oily patch. Finished. Takes longer to type than it does to clean a flint rifle.
If you worry about leaking toothpicks put a rag or paper towel around and under toothpick while rifle is soaking. Worried about rust a little water soluble machinist oil in cleaning mixture will help. I don't put it in my solution as I have no rust. One rifle I shoot a lot had the end of the breech plug shined to a mirror finish. After 28 yrs and lots of shooting and cleaning gleams like a cat eye when the rifle is clean. Tim

[Vomitus]

I wanted to try Moose Milk in my flinter, but I couldn't get the moose to stand still long enough.  Cold water will have to do.

  The bulls don't like that!

[WadePatton]

... Well water has the same salts and minerals as city water...

Not in this zip code.  I know where sulphur wells (that's a mineral right?) are common and sometimes strong enough to destroy consumer electronics with corrosion just from sharing the same air.  Ate copper pipes from the inside.  Always had a bigger big-screen than last year, extended warranties always a value for him.

just sayin'.   

[Dphariss]

So enlighten me grouch.  What EXACTLY is in liquid detergent (NOT soap) that will cause your barrel harm.  Very interested in that as I sort of feel that what's in black powder after ignition has a greater tendency to cause your barrel harm.

This may not be exactly true. BP fouling sucks up water like a sponge, this is how it causes corrosion. As a result its very easy to dissolve and wash away with water. Most detergents, like Dawn, contain salt in the form of sodium lauryl sulfate (SLS) and sodium laureth sulfate (SLES). Sodium salt.
Since it does not make the barrel cleaner I see no point.
BTW my hands are not made of steel. They also often have things on them that are not water soluble. Like oil or grease. So I use a hand cleaner with grit when they are really dirty. Not something I would use on a barrel.
Dan

[Dphariss]

Brooktrout.
If CVAs "Barrel Blaster" cleaning stuff with all that "gee whiz" inoic (or whatever) stuff is what is being called "water free", the MSDS says >89% water.
There are some modern bore solvents like Hoppes #9 or #9 Benchrest for modern firearms and these also contain water since they have alcohol in them and alcohol will pull water from the air if I am properly informed. Small amount but there. I have even found that plain old water will even pull carbon out of modern brass suppository barrels if poured through then wiped but the stuff is not all that water soluble being "smokeless" fouling.
BTW I started shooting MLs about 1964-65. I have worked professionally in the BP firearms industry in various capacities and shot a LOT with BP. I suspect I have MLs older than you are and the barrels are not pitted or rusty. I am SURE I have a Douglas barrel in the shop that is older since  I built a rifle around it in 1968. There are people here with more experience than I for sure. Most of us have already done the things you are so proud of and more having been buying and trying various things for decades finding no actual benefit over water. In other words this is not our first Rodeo. So when you start giving people with 30-50 years experience with a multitude of BP firearms "lessons" on how to "really" clean a barrel, they may not be as impressed as you might wish.

Dan

[Dphariss]

One other thing to try even with your cleaning regimen is after you run your dry patches down squirt some WD-40 into the bore and some on a patch and run it back and forth.  Then use your oil.  When I do this after using hot water I'll swear I can go back 2 weeks later and run a patch down the barrel and it comes out clean as a whistle.  My buddies who only oil after using hot water has rust on their patches bad.  I'm about to talk them into using WD-40 as I believe it gets out the final bit of water that you think is out of there but is not.  But then again I use either CLP or Mobil 1 to oil with and maybe that is why I don't get rust.

Bb

This is only advisable if the bore really is dry otherwise there will likely be rusting. I would never put WD40 in a bore and then not stand the gun muzzle down for several hours. Getting these penetrating oils in the wood is not a good idea and if standing muzzle up it will run into the stock unless the vent/nipple is sealed.

Dan

[Dphariss]

I have an ultrasonic cleaner that I use to clean casings for reloading and also gun parts. Of course the cleaned parts are treated with corrosion protectants and lubed where necessary.

What are your thoughts on using the ultrasonic cleaner on locks? After thorough cleaning, the locks would be treated with anticorrosives as above.
It is hard to get into the spaces between the springs and small parts of the lock. Ultrasonic cleaning would seem the tool for that.
Thanks,
Ron

I have an US unit I use on brass suppositories and some modern handgun parts to remove carbon and such. Not worth the trouble for ML locks IMO.

Dan

[Topknot]

Brooktrout.
If CVAs "Barrel Blaster" cleaning stuff with all that "gee whiz" inoic (or whatever) stuff is what is being called "water free", the MSDS says >89% water.
There are some modern bore solvents like Hoppes #9 or #9 Benchrest for modern firearms and these also contain water since they have alcohol in them and alcohol will pull water from the air if I am properly informed. Small amount but there. I have even found that plain old water will even pull carbon out of modern brass suppository barrels if poured through then wiped but the stuff is not all that water soluble being "smokeless" fouling.
BTW I started shooting MLs about 1964-65. I have worked professionally in the BP firearms industry in various capacities and shot a LOT with BP. I suspect I have MLs older than you are and the barrels are not pitted or rusty. I am SURE I have a Douglas barrel in the shop that is older since  I built a rifle around it in 1968. There are people here with more experience than I for sure. Most of us have already done the things you are so proud of and more having been buying and trying various things for decades finding no actual benefit over water. In other words this is not our first Rodeo. So when you start giving people with 30-50 years experience with a multitude of BP firearms "lessons" on how to "really" clean a barrel, they may not be as impressed as you might wish.

Dan

Well said Dan, I totally agree with your statement. Some dont realize that some of the older buckskinners have already ".been there and did that".

                                                         topknot

[Dr. Tim-Boone]

We all have lots of opinions....much like we have elbows.  Here is a site that has some field experiment results that are hard to overlook.....  take look at the use of Balistol as a rust inhibitor for example, compared to other lubes..........

http://www.ctmuzzleloaders.com/ctml_experiments/corrosion/corrosion.html

http://www.ctmuzzleloaders.com/ctml_experiments/corrosion/corrosion2.html

http://www.ctmuzzleloaders.com/ctml_experiments.html

[Daryl]

This is only advisable if the bore really is dry otherwise there will likely be rusting. I would never put WD40 in a bore and then not stand the gun muzzle down for several hours. Getting these penetrating oils in the wood is not a good idea and if standing muzzle up it will run into the stock unless the vent/nipple is sealed.

Dan

Good Point, Dan.

We- Taylor and I store ALL of our ML rifles, muzzle down - we both use profuse amounts of WD40 to flush the bore after cleaning and drying (liberally runs out the vent) and spray the locks all over. Before reinstalling the locks are blown off with compressed air, wiped, re-oiled or greased and reinstalled. 

Barrels are patched out by blasting the excess WD40 out the vent, wiped inside and out then reinstalled. The the guns are stored muzzle down.  There is no wood damage, and the bores are protected until used next time - whether it is next week, or 4 years from now.  No rust and if you run a patch down the bore and out- it is clean. Re-oil and again store muzzle down.

[Bob Roller]

OR if you have 30-50 years of experience and offer sound advice and get an argument back in return.

Bob Roller

[RonC]

"This may not be exactly true. BP fouling sucks up water like a sponge, this is how it causes corrosion. As a result its very easy to dissolve and wash away with water. Most detergents, like Dawn, contain salt in the form of sodium lauryl sulfate (SLS) and sodium laureth sulfate (SLES). Sodium salt.
Since it does not make the barrel cleaner I see no point.
BTW my hands are not made of steel. They also often have things on them that are not water soluble. Like oil or grease. So I use a hand cleaner with grit when they are really dirty. Not something I would use on a barrel.
Dan"

Dan,
Sodium Lauryl sulfate and Sodium Laureth Sulfate are not really salts simply because they contain sodium. The chemical formulas show them to be organic compounds with a terminal negative charge that attracts sodium (CH₃(CH₂)₁₁OSO₃Na). All those C's are carbon and the H's are hydrogen, and that is what makes up an hydrocarbon organic compound. The important thing is that they are organics, not salts, and play little to no part in corrosion. The uncharged end picks up "dirt" and the charged end lets it dissolve in water. The dirt in this case is carbon from shooting black powder. Then the "dirt," sodium lauryl sulfate and water go down the drain together.
My guess, and a guess it is, is that water alone picks up most of the carbon particles from the black powder burn through physical sloshing and agitation, then carries it out of the bore. Carbon is only sparingly soluble in water. The SLS detergent actually solubilizes some of the carbon that is not picked up and sloshed out of the bore by water alone and you end up with a cleaner bore.
There are some ways in which residual ions from black powder could tie up the charged end of the SLS and it would no longer go into solution in the water and it would leave a film - the analog to the famous household disaster mentioned in detergent adds in the 1980s: Ring around the collar.
I am no where near as experienced with black powder as most of you, but I haven't noticed any deposits in my bores.
And, as some already have said, we really can over think this topic. Thank goodness I am not guilty of that.
Ron

[Daryl]

LOL

[Vomitus]

OR if you have 30-50 years of experience and offer sound advice and get an argument back in return.

Bob Roller

I guess he didn't like our advise?  Ah $#@*, I only got 26 years with black,sorry. Has he left the building?