Author Topic: Rough Barrel  (Read 13066 times)

aross007

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Rough Barrel
« on: June 14, 2014, 08:22:50 AM »
The barrel I am working on that led to the discussion on installing breech plugs is a .50 cal from green mountain.  When I seat a ball it goes in nice and smooth until the last six inches, when it feels like I've hit sandpaper.  I don't have a bore scope, but when I look in the breech I can see like waves in the grooves.  The patches seem fine - no tears or cuts. 

Can I polish it easily?  Do I need to lap it?

Thanks,
Alan

Offline Ryan McNabb

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Re: Rough Barrel
« Reply #1 on: June 14, 2014, 03:44:07 PM »
This sounds like a quality control issue...I feel sure GM would replace this barrel unless you bought it used.  Not sure if you can lap out such massive defects.  Being so far down the bore, does it have any effect on accuracy?

Offline KLMoors

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Re: Rough Barrel
« Reply #2 on: June 14, 2014, 03:52:13 PM »
It seems like if the defects are obvious to the eye, then it is not something that you can polish or lap out. 

Online Daryl

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Re: Rough Barrel
« Reply #3 on: June 14, 2014, 08:13:47 PM »
You may be able to 'remedy' the problem with a lead lap and the gamut of grit abrasives. Lots of time and work, though. Years ago, I'd do exactly that- great satisfaction in the end result - today, I'd just buy another barrel.
Daryl

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Offline moleeyes36

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Re: Rough Barrel
« Reply #4 on: June 15, 2014, 12:02:47 AM »
Alan,

I think Ryan is right, that sounds like a quality problem.  If it's not a swamped barrel I'm sure if you contacted GM they'd replace it.  If it's a swamped barrel you may be out of luck because I just exchanged emails with them 2 or 3 weeks ago and they confirmed that they've discontinued them.

Mole Eyes
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eddillon

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Re: Rough Barrel
« Reply #5 on: June 15, 2014, 01:35:53 AM »
Have you ever considered "fire(pressure) lapping?  Go to www.neconos.com (my website).  We have kits for muzzle loaders.  Call Monday after 9AM Pacific.  800-451-3550
Ed

aross007

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Re: Rough Barrel
« Reply #6 on: June 15, 2014, 05:59:26 AM »
Just to make sure I'm not complaining about something that is normal, here is a picture of the barrel that I think is bad:



Here is a similar picture of a .40 cal GM barrel that looks good to me. (although there is lint in it!)



I only fired it about 6 times, trying to adjust the sights to a starting point, so don't have anything to say yet about the accuracy.  I noticed the roughness on the patched ball, so I pulled the breech.

Thanks for the help,
Alan

Offline Acer Saccharum

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Re: Rough Barrel
« Reply #7 on: June 15, 2014, 07:02:56 AM »
The bottoms of the grooves certainly look like the cutter chattered. You might be able to lap this section so it loads smoothly. It is worth an attempt since you have the barrel mounted and fitted out with sights/lugs/vent, etc.  Since this is the breech end, it should not affect accuracy UNLESS the patch is getting torn.
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Offline Old Ford2

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Re: Rough Barrel
« Reply #8 on: June 15, 2014, 02:07:00 PM »
Hi,
As you have the breech off the barrel, and the ability to inspect your work, I would have no problem doing a lead lap from the breech, but only a controlled distance past the rough area.
With lapping a given distance of perhaps seven (7") inches, it would remove the roughness, mildly increase the barrel diameter, which should have some effect on sealing the patched round ball after ignition.
The soft lead ball would expand to the new diameter, and give a greater seal as it enters in the tight section of the barrel.
Somewhat like a " paradox " rifled barrel, which was smooth bored then rifled at the muzzle.
I would not lap to the extent of removing the rifling from the barrel, only remove the rough area.
That particular area is the actual powder chamber, at the breech, then the area which the patch ball rests, prior to ignition.
Seventy grains of powder ( which is a moderate charge ) takes about 1.66" of a .50 barrel, then a patched .490 ball takes an additional one half inch, so the remaining five inches, do not have much effect on the overall length of rifled barrel.
You have nothing to lose, but can only gain success.
Good luck, and all the best!
Fred
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Offline Bob Roller

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Re: Rough Barrel
« Reply #9 on: June 15, 2014, 03:11:42 PM »
 Roughness in the grooves indicates chatter and maybe a hard place in the material
the barrel is made from.

Bob Roller

Offline Ryan McNabb

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Re: Rough Barrel
« Reply #10 on: June 15, 2014, 03:21:57 PM »
Well, considering that's almost down on the powder charge, and this is a ML barrel were talking about not a high power target rifle, and you've already built the rest of the gun, and that all magnified barrel photos look pretty scary, I'd say run a lap through that and go on with life.

aross007

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Re: Rough Barrel
« Reply #11 on: June 15, 2014, 11:00:22 PM »
OK, I'm into building up guns because I like to work on them, so I think I'll try to lap it.  I was able to examine some patches from my first shots - no evidence of tearing, but I'll push a patched ball through to make sure that it seems OK.  Understand from tom's comment that I need to only work on the breech end from the breech end.  I couldn't find a tutorial on lapping, but the forum posts that referenced lapping talked about pouring a lead lap and not taking it out of the barrel.  How would I do that from the breech end?  Could I just upset an oversized ball?  If I do cast one - pure lead or 20-to-1 that I have for cartridge rifles?  Cast a screw into the lap?  Recommendations on lapping compound?

As always, thanks so much for the help,
Alan

Offline Dave B

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Re: Rough Barrel
« Reply #12 on: June 16, 2014, 12:51:14 AM »
I would pour the lap at the muzzle end using the lap only at the breach area once it was formed.  I would agree with Bob that the reason its there is due to a hard spot. Lapping may smooth it up but I doubt it will remove it. Has any one inlet a section of break hone as you would a rifling cutter so you could focus the abrasive over the offending spot?
Dave Blaisdell

Offline EC121

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Re: Rough Barrel
« Reply #13 on: June 16, 2014, 01:25:19 AM »
What if you made a polisher out of a wad of scotchbrite on a bolt.  Squeezing the abrasive between two washers would press it into the grooves.  It would polish it some and shouldn't remove a lot of metal.  If that doesn't help, there is always the lapping procedure.
Brice Stultz

Offline Acer Saccharum

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Re: Rough Barrel
« Reply #14 on: June 16, 2014, 04:37:17 AM »
If the bad section is smaller groove diameter, then the lap may bind as soon as it enters the ruff spot. You won't know until you try it.
But lapping isn't going to hurt a thing, as long as you don't lap the muzzle bell-mouthed.
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Offline D. Taylor Sapergia

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Re: Rough Barrel
« Reply #15 on: June 16, 2014, 06:51:31 PM »
As far as i can see, you only have two choices:  lap it, or buy a new one and start over.

A friend almost ruined his .40 cal Getz barreled longrifle by using boiling water to clean it.  Naturally it flash rusted each time he cleaned it, so the frosting of the bore increased every time he cleaned it, to the point that it was difficult to load, and really difficult to clean properly.  I acquired the rifle when he died and discovered the damage.  So I set about to lap it.

I turned a lapping plug out of a steel bridge spike:  12" long x 3/8" di.  The plug is 5 1/2" long overall, just under 3/8" at the big end and just a little bigger than the 8 x 32 tpi threaded small end.  Both ends are threaded 8 x 32 tpi.  On the small end goes a washer and a nut.  The big end goes into your lapping rod which is best if it has a ball bearing handle so that it can rotate with the rifling unobstructed by your grip on the handle.



I cast a pure lead lap around the plug in the muzzle of the barrel, pushed out the lap enough to trim it so that the threaded end of the steel plug would take the washer and the nut, and then pulled it down to the breech end of the barrel and withdrew it enough to oil it and charge it with valve grinding compound.  I ran the lap back and forth in the barrel until it floated without resistance, then repeated the charging and lapping until it would cut no more.  Then I cleaned the lap, pushed it to the muzzle, gave the nut a quarter turn, returned it to the breech where I charged it again with valve grinding compound, and continued the lapping process.  After about two hours of this, I changed to fine valve grinding compound, and continued lapping.  

I finished with some 600 grit emery powder.  Over the course of the process, the lap advanced down the plug about 1/8", sliding up the taper and expanding each time to tightly fill the rifling.  I cut a groove on one side of the lap's end as a reference mark to correspond to the front sight, so that when I pushed the lap right out for cleaning it and the barrel, to check the progress, I could return it to the barrel the same way it was cast.  My brother Daryl was an enormous help with this project, and we spelled each other off when necessary to continue the process over the course of about 6 hours.  

The result was entirely worth the effort.  This barrel has a gold band around the breech and a gold name plate set into the top flat, and replacing it was hardly an option.  The result of the lapping was to completely rejuvenate the bore.  Once again, it is easy to load, and is deadly accurate.  It still is not as easy to clean as a new barrel, or one that was cared for properly, but so what?  The results of lapping are profound!

So two things:  one - don't use boiling water to clean your barrel...tepid or even cool water does just as good a job without the risk of flash rusting because of the too rapid evaporation.   And two:  you can save a rough barrel by through lapping.

In your case, you are likely going to run the lap right to the muzzle for a while to further polish the bottoms of the grooves, and spend almost all of your time working the breech.  A mark or stop on the rod will tell you when you have gone in deep enough.

Good luck and let us know how it went.
« Last Edit: June 16, 2014, 06:51:55 PM by D. Taylor Sapergia »
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Offline Scota4570

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Re: Rough Barrel
« Reply #16 on: June 16, 2014, 06:55:02 PM »
I have lapped several barrels.  My approach is not textbook.  Lapping is time consuming.  Wear a leather glove to avoid blisters.   I find that hardened lead works better than pure lead.  I also add a wood screw to upset the lap periodically and avoid casting so many.  I rotate the lap to be sure all the lands and grooves are the same and the bore stays round.  I lap a choke bore in the bore.    Having a tight muzzle makes loading much easier.  I start with about 120-grit  and end up about 320-grit.  I know that sounds aggresive.  If you have bad tool marks  you will have to get after it to smooth them out.  


Offline Dennis Glazener

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Re: Rough Barrel
« Reply #17 on: June 16, 2014, 08:11:38 PM »
Maybe I missed something but why wouldn't it be best to just send the barrel back to GM? He said he had shot it only 6 times! From my experience it's going to take an awful lot of lapping to get that flaw/s out of that barrel. Also would think the lapping needs to be uniform all the way through the barrel or you will end up with a oversize barrel in the breech area (might not hurt anything).

Yes he would need to refinish the barrel/new tenons etc but still less work than lapping with no certainty of being able to take care of the problem, but probably less work than lapping for hours.
Dennis
« Last Edit: June 16, 2014, 08:13:57 PM by Dennis Glazener »
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Offline JTR

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Re: Rough Barrel
« Reply #18 on: June 16, 2014, 08:19:36 PM »
I agree with Dennis, send it back if you bought it new from them.

Once you lap it, you'll own it, whether the lapping improves the situation or not...

John
John Robbins

Offline moleeyes36

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Re: Rough Barrel
« Reply #19 on: June 16, 2014, 08:57:58 PM »
I agree with Dennis, send it back if you bought it new from them.

Once you lap it, you'll own it, whether the lapping improves the situation or not...

John

Absolutely, send it back.  It isn't a swamped barrel they can replace it for you.

Mole Eyes
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aross007

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Re: Rough Barrel
« Reply #20 on: June 17, 2014, 03:58:07 AM »
Update:  I talked with Green Mountain, and their quality control people will examine and let me know whether they can fix it or replace it.  The bad news to me (I'm impatient, I wanted to be shooting this one this summer) is that they are out of stock, and aren't going to be making more until this fall.  I may be in the lapping business after all.

Alan

Offline Old Ford2

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Re: Rough Barrel
« Reply #21 on: June 17, 2014, 02:38:11 PM »
I suggested this lapping process to a fellow one time, insisting to go slow.
Being impatient as he was, he decided to use an electric drill, to speed things up.
Needless to say, he did a fine job ???
All I can say is to go slow, and enjoy the journey.
Fred
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Let the Lord pick the good from the bad!

Offline Acer Saccharum

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Re: Rough Barrel
« Reply #22 on: June 17, 2014, 02:48:44 PM »
Pull/push the lap in the bore. Do not rotate with electric drill!!!!!
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Offline Dphariss

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Re: Rough Barrel
« Reply #23 on: June 17, 2014, 05:04:31 PM »
The barrel I am working on that led to the discussion on installing breech plugs is a .50 cal from green mountain.  When I seat a ball it goes in nice and smooth until the last six inches, when it feels like I've hit sandpaper.  I don't have a bore scope, but when I look in the breech I can see like waves in the grooves.  The patches seem fine - no tears or cuts. 

Can I polish it easily?  Do I need to lap it?

Thanks,
Alan

Could be it too tight at the breech. If so it will never shoot well. Most GMs are perfect or better but I think there are some seconds out there floating around or they had some slips in QC. I bought one from a private party on the WWW and after looking at it had it recut to .62 for pistol barrels.  It is possible that lapping will fix the problem but gauging the bore would  be a good idea too to see if its tight at the breech or just rough.
I have had a barrel from a custom maker than was big in the middle and tight on both ends so it does happen if the maker gets a little sloppy.
Lapping requires a lead lap cast in the bore then coated with abrasive. Also needs a heavy steel rod with a free turning handle IE BEARINGS in the handle.
But this requires some study or the help of someone who knows how. I would not use compound coarser than 180-220. I use Clover Compound for lapping and finish with 600. Valve lapping compound is usually too coarse.
Dan
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Offline Dphariss

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Re: Rough Barrel
« Reply #24 on: June 17, 2014, 05:08:54 PM »
I have lapped several barrels.  My approach is not textbook.  Lapping is time consuming.  Wear a leather glove to avoid blisters.   I find that hardened lead works better than pure lead.  I also add a wood screw to upset the lap periodically and avoid casting so many.  I rotate the lap to be sure all the lands and grooves are the same and the bore stays round.  I lap a choke bore in the bore.    Having a tight muzzle makes loading much easier.  I start with about 120-grit  and end up about 320-grit.  I know that sounds aggresive.  If you have bad tool marks  you will have to get after it to smooth them out.  



Soft lead is upset by tapping the rod with a hammer. Won't work with hard lead. Though a little tin 1:40 or 1:50 might let it pour a better lap.

Dan
He who dares not offend cannot be honest. Thomas Paine