Author Topic: Ram rod groove and drill hole  (Read 7683 times)

mjm46@bellsouth.net

  • Guest
Ram rod groove and drill hole
« on: June 17, 2014, 05:36:02 PM »
I got to thinking on this today. Seems that most inlet the barrel before taking on the more ominous task of drilling the ram rod hole.

I'm thinking the ram rod drill hole and groove should be done first after planning the rifle. Then if there is a problem with a slight miss drill things can be rearranged to fix it with minimal inconvenience. Another advantage and almost more important is You will be drilling with the stock blank in its sturdiest form so wood flex is negligible. Another advantage is when the barrel is inlet after the ram rod you know exactly how deep you can go with the barrel. Getting it as close to the rod drill hole as you want exactly.

Anyone ever do it this way? And if so is there a downside that I'm forgetting or missing?

Offline Hawken62_flint

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 504
  • Nothing like it, 'cept more of it !
Re: Ram rod groove and drill hole
« Reply #1 on: June 17, 2014, 06:59:00 PM »
If you get Muzzle Blasts, in either the April, May or June issue, Peter Alexander tackles this subject and states his case for drilling the ramrod hole first.  So, you are not the only one to think about reversing the order of barrel channel and ramrod groove and hole.

mjm46@bellsouth.net

  • Guest
Re: Ram rod groove and drill hole
« Reply #2 on: June 17, 2014, 11:53:52 PM »
thanks I'm going to dig out those issues and check that out.

kaintuck

  • Guest
Re: Ram rod groove and drill hole
« Reply #3 on: June 18, 2014, 12:38:32 AM »
i get chastiszed often for out of the norm building steps.....you could do it 1st~ but then you have to make SURE the barrel is where it needs to be!
I drill/channel the RR with the barrel in the stock....and i mean with the tenons in place and the stock still square~
but of late...Dave keck has been doing this for me......he needs the $$ for dog food, and i get to rest my arm muscles! ;D
marc

Offline Stophel

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4532
  • Chris Immel
Re: Ram rod groove and drill hole
« Reply #4 on: June 18, 2014, 01:27:15 AM »
The problem is that if the ramrod hole drill goes off, the ramrod channel will be crooked.  Inletting the barrel to match up with the front and rear ends of the ramrod channel would result in a rather bent, crooked looking fore end.

The hole should be in line with the rod groove. If the drill bit goes awry, the hole  should be plugged and redrilled, rather than trying to force fit the barrel to match.   ;)
When a reenactor says "They didn't write everything down"   what that really means is: "I'm too lazy to look for documentation."

Offline JCKelly

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1434
Re: Ram rod groove and drill hole
« Reply #5 on: June 18, 2014, 05:42:56 PM »
Does one not usually drill the ram rod hole using a good Man-powered brace & bit, to minimize the sudden Whoops when the nice fast electric machine sends the bit awry?

Offline Acer Saccharum

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 19311
    • Thomas  A Curran
Re: Ram rod groove and drill hole
« Reply #6 on: June 18, 2014, 05:47:01 PM »
Dave Rase said his 'precision inlet' consists of drilling the ramrod hole first, then inletting the barrel to get the exact web and placement.

Tom
Tom Curran's web site : http://monstermachineshop.net
Ramrod scrapers are all sold out.

whetrock

  • Guest
Re: Ram rod groove and drill hole
« Reply #7 on: June 18, 2014, 07:11:42 PM »
I’m eager to hear how it works out, Micah. Lots of ways to skin the cat.

If we were talking about traditional technique alone, I think the case could be made that the barrel was typically inlet first. There are several reasons to assume that. (Forgive me for repeating info that everyone already knows here, but I think it is helpful for the newer arrivals among us.) Sprengel talked about the barrel channel then rod hole sequence in his 1771 article. (JHAT 1988, p 138, 148). We also find antique examples in which the rod hole went badly, and left inadequate web for the forward lock nail, broke through the forearm, or broke through and into the barrel channel.
We also note that many (most?) antiques have a series of “feeler holes” drilled down from the barrel channel into the rod hole. Why a series? If the rod hole were drilled first, then only one or at most two would be necessary (one at the breach and one at the entry pipe). But a whole series seems to suggest that the smith was trying to keep track of where the hole was going in relation to an already established barrel channel.

As for the series of holes, it is also noteworthy that many/most (all?) 18th c antiques that have antique rods still in place have tapered rods. I suspect that at least some of these old guns must have had tapered rod holes, as well. (I need to note here that I have no data to base that on. It’s just conjecture based on the tapered rods. Let me know if you guys get around to measuring the inside diameters of the rod holes of some antiques.)
It is not easy to drill a tapered hole. But is easy to drill and undersized hole and then enlarge it with a tapered reamer. It is also easy enough to move an undersized hole slightly in one direction or another as you enlarge the hole. Did smiths regularly do that? I have no idea. But feeler holes are required if you want to do it successfully. And I know that the technology for how to do it did exist in the 18th c. It’s existence is documented in the tear-dropped shaped broach/reamer that appears in Wyke’s catalogue (see page 31, item 110A-H, and the tear drop shaped cross section in the cut on page 33.)

I hope it is clear that what I’m talking about here is traditional technology. I’m not talking about how to most efficiently skin the cat using contemporary methods. Those are different topics. I'm also happy to note that there is a big contrast between the neatest methods and the more workman-like methods of old.

Whet

Ref:
Wyke, John (John Wyke of Liverpool). A Catalogue of Tools for Watch and Clock Makers. Originally printed between 1758 and 1770. Currently available as a reprint with annotations added, by Winterthur Museum, 1978.

« Last Edit: June 18, 2014, 07:14:50 PM by Whetrock (PLB) »

Offline David Rase

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4320
  • If we need it here, make it here. Charlie Daniels
Re: Ram rod groove and drill hole
« Reply #8 on: June 18, 2014, 08:30:13 PM »
Dave Rase said his 'precision inlet' consists of drilling the ramrod hole first, then inletting the barrel to get the exact web and placement.

Tom
Tom, let me elaborate on your simpleton explanation of my "precision" inlet.  I inlet the barrel channel into the stock blank undersize.  Then I cut the ramrod groove and drill the ramrod.  I then realign the stock into my duplicating machine by lining the full size barrel channel pattern to the ramrod hole and then complete the barrel inlet.  Of course, premium work calls for premium pay, but I can guarantee exact alignment, or as exact as you can get working with wood.
David 

kaintuck

  • Guest
Re: Ram rod groove and drill hole
« Reply #9 on: June 18, 2014, 10:54:08 PM »
JC...I use a brace and bit most of the ones i have done....and claer it every 1/2"...lube with bar soap....

no, one time I clamped the stock into my vise...and cucked the bit into my large slow drill........very carefully did the job.....but it could of gone wrong rather quickly~ but i was a small RR and i took my time...still clearing every 1/2"....

marc

Offline Acer Saccharum

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 19311
    • Thomas  A Curran
Re: Ram rod groove and drill hole
« Reply #10 on: June 19, 2014, 12:25:34 AM »
Tom, let me elaborate on your simpleton explanation of my "precision" inlet. 

This is why we get along so well, Dave. It's a good thing you don't live closer, I'd be paying you a visit.  :D

...to see your precision inlet in person, so I can explain it better next time.
Tom Curran's web site : http://monstermachineshop.net
Ramrod scrapers are all sold out.

Offline Ryan McNabb

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 234
    • McNabb's Station
Re: Ram rod groove and drill hole
« Reply #11 on: June 19, 2014, 02:42:56 AM »
I tend to hand aim the drill bit where I want it to go.  I bend the stock a little in the two vices I have on my bench and this gets the fore stock up and out of the way.  This also allows me to miss the mainspring on the big locks I usually use.  I find the ramrod groove isn't often a good jig for holding the bit and the more I try to lock the bit into position, the more trouble it caused me.

DaveP (UK)

  • Guest
Re: Ram rod groove and drill hole
« Reply #12 on: June 19, 2014, 11:17:38 PM »
I'm having a slow time of it with my "practice gun" - original barrel with preformed tang, predrilled lock plate, preformed and predrilled trigger plate. I lack the skills to make accurate drawings of these complex shapes so I'm building without a master plan. Its pretty tedious. I'm already on my second piece of wood and I'm still not totally sure that I'm going to have the grip in the right place with respect to the trigger. Good job its only a pistol  :)
One thing I have learnt is that next time I am going to have a proper full size drawing before I touch a tool. The thought of simply transferring lines to a board and then working to them seems soo attractive!

It strikes me that if the ramrod hole is drilled first then you would face the extra task of laying the job out again, but in relation to a datum that you cant actually see, thus jeopardising some of that accuracy and convenience.
Plus, of course, anyone like me would inevitably find that after realigning the barrel the end of the wood would no longer reach the position where the butt plate needed to be ...  >:(


mjm46@bellsouth.net

  • Guest
Re: Ram rod groove and drill hole
« Reply #13 on: June 21, 2014, 05:04:14 AM »
If you get Muzzle Blasts, in either the April, May or June issue, Peter Alexander tackles this subject and states his case for drilling the ramrod hole first.  So, you are not the only one to think about reversing the order of barrel channel and ramrod groove and hole.
I did find the P. Alexander article, it's in May/June issue of "Muzzleloader". It goes into how to fix Drill hole errors. But he started and ended the article with a mention of drilling the ram rod hole first. If you have the issue it's worth the read. He has the same idea as me.

My thought is the ramrod groove and drill are the first cuts on the blank, then if there is an error with the RR drill you simply readjust the position of the stock and the barrel. You are now working with cuts that you can see and control.

I look at it like a safety factor. If you drill the hole and it goes a little high or low you simply adjust the depth of the barrel channel accordingly. It may mean repositioning the stock on the blank slightly but that still seems easier than trying to fix a ram rod drill hole that has run-out somewhere. You plan for it to be in the correct position but stuff happens. At worst the run-out would be about 1/8". So that would likely be the amount you need to adjust your plan, but you still have the full blank to mess with.

Offline Stophel

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4532
  • Chris Immel
Re: Ram rod groove and drill hole
« Reply #14 on: June 21, 2014, 09:39:22 PM »
At worst the run-out would be about 1/8".

Oh, it can run off MUCH more than that.
When a reenactor says "They didn't write everything down"   what that really means is: "I'm too lazy to look for documentation."

Offline Jim Kibler

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4473
    • Personal Website
Re: Ram rod groove and drill hole
« Reply #15 on: June 21, 2014, 10:38:33 PM »
Absolutely nothing wrong with an electric drill in my view.  With a properly aligned groove and a bit started in the right direction there's really not much issue with drilling in my opinion.  I spin the bit fast in an electric drill and don't really mess around.  Entire hole is probably drilled in ten minutes or less.  Inletting or adjusting the barrel inlet after the hole is drilled, will certainly allow for a high level of precision if you feel that is necessary.  I've not had trouble enough to warrant this.

Offline Old Ford2

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1102
Re: Ram rod groove and drill hole
« Reply #16 on: June 21, 2014, 10:53:16 PM »
While drilling, the secret is holding your tongue out of your mouth just so, to get the drilling right.
I'm not telling how much or which side, as it is a secret ;D
And if you mess up, through something at the cat!
Fred
Never surrender, always take a few with you.
Let the Lord pick the good from the bad!

Offline jerrywh

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8885
    • Jerrywh-gunmaker- Master  Engraver FEGA.
Re: Ram rod groove and drill hole
« Reply #17 on: June 22, 2014, 12:48:02 AM »
 I do it with an electric drill the same as Jim Kibler.  It is imperative that the forearm grove be in alignment. if it is and your drill is sharp and you clean the chips often you will not miss much if any. 
Nobody is always correct, Not even me.

Offline Ryan McNabb

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 234
    • McNabb's Station
Re: Ram rod groove and drill hole
« Reply #18 on: June 22, 2014, 04:34:42 AM »
Absolutely nothing wrong with an electric drill in my view.  With a properly aligned groove and a bit started in the right direction there's really not much issue with drilling in my opinion.  I spin the bit fast in an electric drill and don't really mess around.  Entire hole is probably drilled in ten minutes or less.  Inletting or adjusting the barrel inlet after the hole is drilled, will certainly allow for a high level of precision if you feel that is necessary.  I've not had trouble enough to warrant this.

I put one in tonight in 25 minutes from the first cut with a chisel to the last depth check.  I had to bend the fore stock up out of the way because of the significant swamp on the barrel, but it's an easy job.  Some beeswax on the bit lets it turn smooth as buttah.