Author Topic: "aging iron"  (Read 14273 times)

Offline goodtime7

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"aging iron"
« on: June 20, 2014, 06:10:26 PM »
Just a novice builder, so hope I am not asking a question that is too simple or straightforward.    Building a Eastern Tenn 36 cal longrifle, and would like to "age" the iron vs either bluing or browning it to make it look new.   My impression is that you can rust blue the metal, and then work it back to the desired effect.   Some have advocated Clorox sparingly to expedite the process.    I was wondering if you could "point me in the right direction" as how to proceed.   thanks   Bruce

Offline Ryan McNabb

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Re: "aging iron"
« Reply #1 on: June 20, 2014, 08:23:20 PM »
I think you're talking about two different things, possibly.  Do you want to simply age the finish, or do you want the metal itself to look old and rusted?  If you blue or brown, then buff back the highlights to white, it will give one effect, but if you want to actually deeply rust the metal (the Clorox effect) then you'll have a very rough surface that will look vastly different, and will probably be left unfinished as it is. 

Personally, I prefer the former...it makes the gun look comfortable and approachable without looking abused.  I think the boiling Clorox thing has been overdone, but that opinion is worth what you paid for it.  I've never seen an original that looked that way.  Some people love it, and I've seen rifles done this way that I would love to own.

SteveMKentucky

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Re: "aging iron"
« Reply #2 on: June 20, 2014, 08:51:05 PM »
If you want the kind of finish that the House brothers achieve on their "Woodbury School" guns you can boil them in water and pure bleach.  Once they oxidize you let them dry, then burnish them with a fine grade of steel wheel on a bench grinder.

Here's one of Hershel's guns with his finish:

« Last Edit: June 20, 2014, 08:51:49 PM by SteveMKentucky »

Offline Acer Saccharum

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Re: "aging iron"
« Reply #3 on: June 20, 2014, 08:52:05 PM »
Pitting happens naturally around the touchhole part of the barrel, under the pan of the lock.

And then there is the look where EVERYTHING is pitted evenly, buttplate, guard, barrel and lock.

If you decide to pit the metal, consider aging the wood to an appropriate level of age. It just looks odd when a gun has aged metal hardware, and the wood is shiny and new looking.
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Offline JTR

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Re: "aging iron"
« Reply #4 on: June 20, 2014, 09:00:17 PM »
Be consistent whatever you do.

Pitted metal and perfectly finished wood just won't happen naturally. Some might like the look, but it's about as phony as can be.

John
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oakridge

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Re: "aging iron"
« Reply #5 on: June 20, 2014, 09:29:52 PM »
Be consistent whatever you do.

Pitted metal and perfectly finished wood just won't happen naturally. Some might like the look, but it's about as phony as can be.

John

I agree, and the key word is "phony". If you're careful with the bleach and only allow the slightest etching, you may get away with it. Otherwise you'll end up with one of those ugly pitted "Cloroxed" guns you can spot a mile away.

Offline Acer Saccharum

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Re: "aging iron"
« Reply #6 on: June 20, 2014, 09:34:36 PM »
Just be aware that this site is based on traditional guns, so there is a strong leaning in this direction. But even among all these people of common interest, there is wildly divergent opinion.

Finish as new, finish as used, finish like it is 200 yrs old? What to do? It's so confusing!


Follow what your heart desires. That makes it much easier to decide. If you can't decide, just ask us!  :D :D :D
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Offline JTR

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Re: "aging iron"
« Reply #7 on: June 21, 2014, 12:33:05 AM »
Heck, I have a bunch of beat up guns!
But if they have beat up metal, need beat up wood as well.  ;)

John
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Offline KLMoors

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Re: "aging iron"
« Reply #8 on: June 21, 2014, 01:49:05 AM »
I find that the most realistic way to give iron or steel an aged look is to actually rust it. The bleach method ends up with a look that is nice, but it does not look like an original gun that got some rust on it and was subsequently cleaned up.

Depending on the level of "age" you are looking for, you can rust it in a relatively damp location, like a bathroom, or if you plan on doing a few guns, then build a sweat box.

If it is an octagonal barrel, remember to round your corners some.

I first draw file the barrel and then degrease it.  Then I coat the steel with a coat of LMF browning solution and let it rust for from two to four days, depending on the amount of pitting I am looking for.

I also have a spray bottle filled with salt water that I use to lightly spray the area around the breech during the process. I spray it once or twice a day. The salt water adds to the pitting in this area, which is typical of many originals.

I remove the item, scrub it down with a disc brass brush that I chuck into my cordless drill and I scrub off all of the loose rust. Then you must go at it with scrub pads and fine (150 to 220)  sandpaper to remove the rest of the rust that is attached to the steel.

Then rub it down with cold bluing to turn the pits black and rub it down to the color you want with steel wool or a scotch brite pad.

This whole conversation drive some people crazy and that's OK too. ;)

kaintuck

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Re: "aging iron"
« Reply #9 on: June 21, 2014, 02:27:27 AM »
Ditto  what Ken said! ;D
Some metal may sit for a week I the bathroom....quietly rusting......then when I card it, nice tiny 200yr old pits are there.... ;D

I LIKE ken's wood and metal aging......he's what I aspire to acheive 8)

Marc

P.s. Ken, that Moravain is still at Dave's......that's my next project :D :D :D

Marc

Offline Mark Elliott

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Re: "aging iron"
« Reply #10 on: June 21, 2014, 04:56:44 AM »
Based on original iron mounted guns that I have seen and read about,  I believe the barrel and mounts were originally treated one of four ways; left white,  blackened (coated in oil and heated over a forge until the oil burns off), browned, and charcoal blued.    I have seen all of these on one gun or another,  frequently mixed.   They possibly could have been rust blued but a rust blue can pass for a charcoal blue if you are not too picky.  

I usually treat all my iron mounted guns the same; I produce a nice gun metal gray patina on all the mounts and barrel.   I also slightly age the stock by not worrying about all the accumulated dents and dings and applying a black wash with lamp black oil paint, my normal gunstock finish, and turpentine.  

The metal finish is a fudge since I really don't know how a particular gun might have been originally finished.   If I had to guess, I would say blackened or charcoal blued.    The really nice guns were probably charcoal blued.    I haven't done a charcoal blue because of the trench I would have to dig in the yard and the big charcoal fire I would have to build in the trench.   Both of these can be problematic in a residential area, particularly during fire season.    That said,  I have a project coming in about six months where the client wants an as new iron mounted rifle where I will probably charcoal blue everything.  

In order to get the nice gray/blue/black/brown patina I like,  I degrease everything thoroughly, (Dawn or Acetone work equally well), apply an even coat of cold blue solution, and while still wet, I apply tincture of iodine.  The iodine is an oxidizer, any oxidizer will do.   I think put everything in my damp box.   If you have held your tongue just right,  you should have a red rusted mess the next day that looks like coral is growing out of our mounts and barrel.   If you don't get the heavy red rust, let everything rust another day or two.   If you still don't get a real heavy red rust, then you are going to have to scrub everything back to gray and do it over again to darken the patina.  Then it is just a matter of scrubing back the rust to the desired color.    I suggest not using anything more aggressive than a green ScotchBrite pad and that is only to knock down the worst of the rust.  When you start to see some bright metal, switch immediately to a gray ScotchBrite pad and finish up with the White pad.    You should end up with a gray/blue/black patina that may have some brown overtones.      

Of course you can achieve the same result in many different ways.   Scrubbing back a rust blue would do the same thing but would be a lot more work.   I think bleach or any strong acid would do the same thing as the tincture of iodine, but the iodine seems relatively safer to me.  You must use tincture of iodine and not poviodine.    Poviodine (Betadine) has only about a quarter of the elemental iodine available for the reaction.  
« Last Edit: June 21, 2014, 04:59:58 AM by Mark Elliott »

Offline Dan Fruth

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Re: "aging iron"
« Reply #11 on: June 21, 2014, 05:22:03 AM »
A nice look I have used is simply to apply browning solution to the part to be "aged", and put it in a damp box, then the next day add another coat, but don't card the steel. Usually about 4 coats is sufficient. The steel will be randomly affected by the browning, and you start buffing off the rust. the corners will naturally become shinny, and the flat areas will retain the rusted affect. Once your satisfied with the look, be sure to neutralize the metal. You can then blue the metal with cold blue, let dry, rinse with water, and begin to remove the bluing until wou have a nice matte gray-blue color. Again the high spots will tend to be shinny, but that is what you are looking for...Not an even color, but a modeled affect. The other approach is to simply use the gun a lot, and sweat it up a bunch and let it age naturally, but you'll have to live to be 125 years old to enjoy the finished product!...........Dan
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Offline goodtime7

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Re: "aging iron"
« Reply #12 on: June 21, 2014, 05:30:18 PM »
Really appreciate all the thoughts and detailed information that everyone provided to my question of aging iron.   Looks like I need to try some of these excellent ideas on some metal, before proceeding with the metal on my rifle.   I had not given too much thought to having the metal AND the wood consistent in appearance ...very good point.   Agree with what Tom says, I guess it's really what you want, and it rests in the "eyes of the beholder".   Having said that, some things just make more sense then others!!!

Offline Pete G.

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Re: "aging iron"
« Reply #13 on: June 21, 2014, 07:26:05 PM »
I have used Laural Mountain Forge Browning as a base. Get a good brown going, usually three or four coats. Then sand it off about halfway with a 400 grit. Now hit it with a few coats of cold blue. I have settled on Brownell's Oxpho because it is also a degreaser. After this cures, rub the whole thing back with a 0000 steel wool pad and WD 40 until you get where you want to be. This gives the look of a gun that was originally blued, but has oxidized over time.

If you boil a gun in bleach it looks just like a gun boiled in bleach.

Once you get your wood finished use an overcoat of Linseed oil and soot. Rub this on thinly, then wipe down with a paper towel. Do this as part of your regular cleaning routine and it won't take long before the low areas will look darker from the oil and soot and the higher areas will develop a polish, just like an old gun is supposed to look.

medbill

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Re: "aging iron"
« Reply #14 on: June 26, 2014, 10:08:22 PM »
Great thread for a new builder!  I am about to start the rust browning on an iron mounted Chamber's smooth rifle kit with LMF Barrel Brown & Degreaser.  Couple of questions, do you disassemble the lock internals to do the plate, cock and frizzen (not frizzen face of course)?  I was thinking of putting a coat of oil in the powder pan, on frizzen face, internal side of lock plate and on a toothpick stuck in the flashhole.  What do you all think about that?  Any and all advice is greatly appreciated as it is my first build and the stock is coming along great.  I don't want to blow it now. Also what type of gloves to you wear to protect your hands when applying this stuff?  It's hot and humid here in the Hudson Valley so I think my basement will work out just fine for this step. I'd like to get it all done in time for Dixon's next month!

Offline KLMoors

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Re: "aging iron"
« Reply #15 on: June 27, 2014, 04:27:41 PM »
I take everything off the lock to rust it. Jerry Huddleston gave me the tip to use quick drying,  spray lacquer the back of the lock to keep it from rusting. This works like a charm.  I also spray a little lacquer into a cup and dab a toothpick or a stripped down Q-tip into it. I rub some lacquer into the screw holes, the hole in the cock and plate for the tumbler,  and at the frizzen holes/bridal to keep these areas from rusting. I also rub a little on the frizzen face to keep it clean.

I quickly re-sand everything that I want rusted to be sure to get off any overspray/drips and then rust it all in my sweat box.  The lacquer comes right off with lacquer thinner when everything is done.

medbill

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Re: "aging iron"
« Reply #16 on: June 27, 2014, 06:23:35 PM »
I take everything off the lock to rust it. Jerry Huddleston gave me the tip to use quick drying,  spray lacquer the back of the lock to keep it from rusting. This works like a charm.  I also spray a little lacquer into a cup and dab a toothpick or a stripped down Q-tip into it. I rub some lacquer into the screw holes, the hole in the cock and plate for the tumbler,  and at the frizzen holes/bridal to keep these areas from rusting. I also rub a little on the frizzen face to keep it clean.

I quickly re-sand everything that I want rusted to be sure to get off any overspray/drips and then rust it all in my sweat box.  The lacquer comes right off with lacquer thinner when everything is done.

Excellent advice thank you!  What do you do about the touch hole?

Offline KLMoors

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Re: "aging iron"
« Reply #17 on: June 28, 2014, 01:32:31 AM »
I stick a lightly greased toothpick into the touchhole and a dowel that is wrapped loosely in good ole duct tape  gets tapped into the muzzle. I also rub a little grease on the tape to help seal things up.  Using grease keeps all rust away from these important areas but it can mess up the rusting/finish a tad at the touchhole and muzzle though. So depending on the level of finish you are going for you may want to try another method. I rust stuff pretty heavily, so a little mottling is OK for my goals.

kaintuck

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Re: "aging iron"
« Reply #18 on: June 28, 2014, 04:36:27 AM »
Medbill, disassemble that lock, file the seams off, then brown everything ......don't forget to lube it again!

Boys......there's a lot of good info here!.....Mark, where do you get you iodine?

Marc

Offline Mark Elliott

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Re: "aging iron"
« Reply #19 on: June 28, 2014, 02:32:41 PM »
Marc,

Pretty much every drug store sells tincture of iodine in little 1 oz bottles.    I use foam applicators to apply it and the cold blue.   There is little waste that way.    A little bottle will last a surprisingly long time.   

Mark

Offline James

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Re: "aging iron"
« Reply #20 on: June 29, 2014, 03:21:36 PM »
 I believe the barrel and mounts were originally treated one of four ways; left white,  blackened (coated in oil and heated over a forge until the oil burns off), browned, and charcoal blued.    I have seen all of these on one gun or another,  frequently mixed.  

Most of the blacksmithing lore I've encountered advises to heat the iron/steel then apply linseed oil with a rag to get the black.  Is this a case where a different effect is had by oiling then heating or does either method do the same thing?
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Offline Mark Elliott

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Re: "aging iron"
« Reply #21 on: June 30, 2014, 02:59:24 AM »
Heating and applying or dipping in oil never worked for me.  I think you need to dip in oil and them put the part back OVER the heat to cause it to burn off due the heat of the METAL.   I have a gas forge, which is why I don't use this technique.  It doesn't work if you just set the oil on fire directly from the flame of a gas forge or torch.    You really do need a large open heat source (coal forge or open fire) to do this.   Of course,  in the old days, everybody had a coal forge and/or an open fire in the fireplace for heating and cooking.
« Last Edit: June 30, 2014, 03:03:52 AM by Mark Elliott »

kaintuck

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Re: "aging iron"
« Reply #22 on: June 30, 2014, 04:49:43 AM »
I did a side by side of this oil burn idea.....the LMF instructions followed will give constant results. If you slather on oil, then random heat the part....oil puddled, or a certain area gets way hotter than the rest....it gives 'rings' of color..... :-\

Either way....rusted, then oiled and heated will give a VERY tuff finish..... ;D dark too!

Kano rust remover will take it off......make sure of your safety by ALWAYS reading these products instructions guys!  Stinky stuff.....but neat results......

Marc

IKE

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Re: "aging iron"
« Reply #23 on: June 30, 2014, 05:17:30 AM »
AGEING NEW GUNS

Adding Age to new guns is something entirely separate from making them. It is art all by itself and because it is a pure and imaginative activity may be the reason most gunsmiths do not find it interesting or challenging. It's like writing fiction. It implies a past where there is none before. It requires a special talent and a willingness to add a whole new layer of imagination and experimentation to an already successful conclusion.

GOOD LUCK!

Offline WadePatton

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Re: "aging iron"
« Reply #24 on: June 30, 2014, 07:27:03 AM »
First, I want to thank those that shared some of their techniques.   ;)

Well now, hear me clear before i say it.  I'm not advocating for one way or the other.

But while we're on the topic and with regard to "mixed" levels of artificial aging (AA), it does seem quite plausible for a original gun to have been restocked during its normal service life, which might account for "unintended authenticity" in the case of older iron mixed with newer wood.

I know we all love well-done patchwork (original?) repairs to the stockwork but would not* that have been an option for shooters of the era who lived/traveled close enough to a smithy?  Did smiths of the day not offer such an option?

Of course the wood should reflect some age, but maybe not precisely the same age as other components.  That is if you prefer artificial aging over gunshop bright/blue/brown.  

I do prefer the "comfy" look. for the record.

But i also hate overdone Clorox and even the too-consistent stock dings we've all seen.  

It is an art, as IKE says quite nicely above.  I suppose, like art, our tastes may change over time.

*yeah that was a pun-double pun that is.
« Last Edit: June 30, 2014, 08:45:53 AM by WadePatton »
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