Author Topic: Rifle On Julia Auction Site (Read 19404 times)

Mike Gahagan · « **on:** June 26, 2014, 10:43:38 PM »

There is a rifle on the James D. Julia Auction site and the only information they give on it is that it is the earliest signed and dated American made long rifle.I am wondering if it is the controversial Martin Maylin rifle if anyone knows what it looks like but I don`t know how to post pictures here.Is there someone that can help me out if I E-mail a picture of to them?

Tony Clark · « **Reply #1 on:** June 27, 2014, 04:05:22 PM »

there is some beautiful and wonderful guns changing hands now it seems..

these auctions are amazing really....

once in a lifetime

some truly unique guns are in these auctions for certain

This Mr. Sirkin had a most wonderful collection can anyone tell about him??

shroyer, sell, beck, bonewitz best of the best!

this gun you ask about was part of an extensive discussion that occurred before from this forum of early rifles and now it seems all the archives are gone? All erased... actually it was the most discussed thread this forum had ever had. True story.... gone now

spgordon · « **Reply #2 on:** June 27, 2014, 05:23:06 PM »

I don't think the archives have disappeared:

http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=2996.0

Or is it another discussion that you're recalling?

Mike Gahagan · « **Reply #3 on:** June 27, 2014, 06:54:34 PM »

Someone was kind enough to confirm to me by E-mail that the rifle in the auction is the Martin Meylin rifle.That is what I was wanting to know since I have heard a lot about it but never seen the gun.

Habu · « **Reply #4 on:** June 28, 2014, 03:16:06 AM »

From the ALR board's current incarnation, the following threads discuss the Meylin rifle in a more-than-passing way:
this current thread
Martin Meylin's Mysterious Rifle http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=2996.0

From the "old" (i.e., pre 23 July, 2008) ALR board (now read-only archives):
Meylin, Messersmith, Gumph http://americanlongrifles.org/old_board/index.php?topic=2463.0
Martin Meylin http://americanlongrifles.org/old_board/index.php?topic=2160.0
Pictures of signed 1705 Rifle http://americanlongrifles.org/old_board/index.php?topic=2616.0

The supposed gunsmith and the rifle are mentioned in passing in a few other threads on both boards.

For those who are unaware, the "old" board archives can be found at http://americanlongrifles.org/old_board/index.php#1 You may need to contact a moderator to get access, if your user name/password don't work.

spgordon · « **Reply #5 on:** June 28, 2014, 04:09:33 AM »

Those old Board archives are cool--and odd. The main date in the headers are somehow converted to 2106, and the ones at the very bottom at all 1969! But the body of the message contains the accurate date of the message....

Ky-Flinter · « **Reply #6 on:** June 28, 2014, 04:24:05 AM »

Here's a link to the Julia Auction website. The piece being discussed is a little over half way down the page.

http://jamesdjulia.com/369_shs/

-Ron

Eric Kettenburg · « **Reply #7 on:** June 29, 2014, 12:43:37 AM »

Well I'll say it again, the more I look at that rifle, the more I think something is not right; either the barrel signature/date, **or** the rest of the gun relative to the barrel signature/date. Maybe it's a valid barrel marking on a recycled barrel, or maybe the marking is questionable. But I have huge problems with THAT gun with THAT barrel marking on it. No disrespect to anyone involved.

It is a cool old rifle, nevertheless.

Tom Currie · « **Reply #8 on:** June 30, 2014, 05:27:26 AM »

I can't comment on the Martin Meylin gun , but it's clear the good Dr. has a fine collection up for auction.

Eric Kettenburg · « **Reply #9 on:** June 30, 2014, 02:35:34 PM »

You can say that again!

Majorjoel · « **Reply #10 on:** June 30, 2014, 04:26:40 PM »

Just a bit more pot stirring .......Who's to say that Martin Meilin didn't build this piece while he was in Switzerland and brought it to the colonies when he moved here. Several of the early gunsmiths learned their trade in the old country and brought their skills over here. A few may have even brought some inventory with them. Seems to me that this theory makes more sense than trying to justify the species of acorn carved into a 300 + year old stock.

Eric Kettenburg · « **Reply #11 on:** July 01, 2014, 04:51:47 AM »

The problem with that theory is, (1) I don't see any way that the furniture on that gun could be even remotely as early as the date on the barrel, and (2) unless the rifle was built dead plain-jane and carved later, I do not see how the carved decoration could match up with the date on the barrel.

It's a cool piece. Good early (as in perhaps 1760s early) look to it, attractive. But either the barrel is a recycled barrel, or the signature/date is a fake.

I don't know everything, that's for sure, and if I can be shown something to assuage my doubts I would love to see it. However, this gun has been known for many years now, and as yet, nobody has been able to make even a mildly convincing argument in support of it.

Mike Gahagan · « **Reply #12 on:** July 01, 2014, 07:13:59 PM »

After seeing some more pictures of it I agree with you Eric.Too many things just don`t add up.The the carving,furniture and the date verses the timeline of his arrival here in America just don`t fit.

spgordon · « **Reply #13 on:** July 01, 2014, 11:03:33 PM »

I get that the rifle currently up for sale is the Martin Meylin rifle discussed and pictured in the 1978 KRA article by Richard Headley.

There is a different rifle in the possession of the Lancaster County Historical Society that has an MM (or WW) on the barrel: Wayne Heckert wrote about this in his Pennsylvania-Kentucky Rifle: A Lancaster Legend. Has anybody else examined this rifle or written about it?

Buck · « **Reply #14 on:** July 03, 2014, 04:53:35 PM »

Regarding the auction, the 2nd Bonewitz rifle in the parade appears to be a John Hagy rifle.
Buck

rich pierce · « **Reply #15 on:** July 03, 2014, 06:47:56 PM »

I was wondering about that Bonewitz-attributed rifle. I sure like it but hadn't seen one of his with carving like that.

Buck · « **Reply #16 on:** July 03, 2014, 10:41:43 PM »

There has been speculation on a couple of occasions that there was some association between the 2 but it is definitely Hagy carving.
Buck

eastwind · « **Reply #17 on:** July 04, 2014, 10:47:14 PM »

I have handled both the Lancaster Historic Society and the Headley-Mylin rifles and have photos of both from a seminar I did at Landis Vally in 2012 at the Lancaster Long rifle Exhibit. It was titled: The Two Martin Mylin Rifles -Myth or fact".

My focus was not the history of the Mylin family or the past written words about Mylin as a gunsmith (they are flimsy at best), but solely a seminar to compare the two rifles with a goal to see if either could have been reasonably attributed to Martin Mylin. Neither passed the test.

The barrel of the LHS was removed only to find positive evidence that the barrel had been ground down to fit another stock and the barrel was clearly of European style if not origination. It had a flat sighting plane and raised rib sides with deep engraving around the tang often seen on German made barrels. On the flat was lightly engraved "MM"- in a hand very different than the one who engraved the design around the tang.
Those of us at the removal of the barrel concluded the LHS gun (it is actually a later fowler) is clearly a later re-stock and the initials were spurious.

I'm a bit amassed Julia is calling the Headley rifle coming up in auction is the - "earliest signed and dated Kentucky". All indications of the profile, the hardware and other details do not indicate a rifle made as early as 1705. Almost anyone who studies the early rifles has said this about the rifle for years. there are also some date differences and period stats that would also indicate serious inconsistencies with the history of Lancaster or Germantown in those years. Such as Mylin was not in Germantown in 1705 (his father was) and the fact that no iron forge existed anywhere nearby in those years- the first was 1715 near Lancaster. The hardware on the rifle is the same later ommercial German hardware as seen on an Isaac Haines and other rifles shown in Shumway - in short it is an early rifle - but not made in 1705.

I could perhaps believe the rifle is a Mylin family celebration piece---that is, it was engraved 1705 later to recognize some family event. But,the Headly rifle was in William Renwick's - Sotheby, Los Angeles auction in 1973 where I believe Headley acquired it. When I handled it, it was owned by the late Dick Zeske who sold it to Dr. Sirkin now at the Julia Auction coming up.

Renwick was known to have bought a number of fakes from Kimball Arms in his zeal to collect the largest collection of antique firearms. Some of those transactions are well recorded in Herman Deans and Joe Kindig's letters.. Among Renwick's purchases were guns from a Massachusetts dealer - actually an engraver by trade who worked with kimball He was known to engrave names on antique unsigned rifles and pistols. In all cases the engraving is very clear, large and 9if one sees enough of them will see the similarity (at least 5 known guns carry the spurious signatures). A well known pistol carries this forgers signature.
Upon seeing Headley's rifle I am convinced it carries one of the notorious forger's signature. In fact it is signed verbatim from the 1940s gunsmith listings books. The forger was known to use actual gunsmith's names when he signed them and often used the dates shown in the books. Given such evidence it is difficult to now believe the Headley/Julia Auction rifle is not one of these forgeries.

I have spent considerable time on the Mylin story and the two rifles and there is of course a lot more to this story than I can offer here which led to my conclusions, but maybe someday I'll put in print---I'm not over the research yet and maybe someone will come to another conclusion... which I would love to hear.

Patrick Hornberger

mr. no gold · « **Reply #18 on:** July 04, 2014, 11:30:56 PM »

Good analysis and commentary, Partrick! Thank you for sharing your information. I saw the gun when Richard Headley owned it and wondered about it. It stayed up on the wall and was not handled, then. Disassembly is the surest way to ground truth something like this. There have been many discussions and arguments over it, but this should be the final word on the subject. Any idea when they Kindig Collection books will be available? Enjoyed meeting you last week, by the way.
Dick

eastwind · « **Reply #19 on:** July 05, 2014, 12:49:23 AM »

Dick--thanks for the comments apologize for the typos and spelling-spell check didn't work.

I should have mentioned that I do not think Headley knew anything about the fakes at the time he bought the so-called Mylin rifle. However, one old timer who was at the auction told me he "never saw so many crisp signatures on guns". I'm guessing Sothebys sent the "questionable" guns to their LA auction house, instead of New York for a good reason. No reflection on you West Coast guys, but I suspect the Easterners had heard about the fakes among Renwick's collection.
Good to see you at KRA.
Patrick

Buck · « **Reply #20 on:** July 05, 2014, 03:05:42 AM »

Dick,
I believe Patrick announced at the meeting that the book would be available in December.
Buck

mr. no gold · « **Reply #21 on:** July 05, 2014, 06:38:55 AM »

Thanks Noel. I missed the meeting and didn't get the word. I would have stayed, but was out voted by my two traveling companions who had some distance to go and they wanted to get started. My position is that if you are in an organization, (such as the KRA), you have an obligation to attend meetings, otherwise stay home.
Dick

spgordon · « **Reply #22 on:** July 05, 2014, 02:48:15 PM »

Thanks for the excellent post, Patrick--and for the convincing presentation in 2012 at Landis Valley, which I saw and enjoyed!

Buck · « **Reply #23 on:** July 05, 2014, 03:20:29 PM »

Dick it was good to see you.
Buck

eastwind · « **Reply #24 on:** July 07, 2014, 11:07:14 PM »

Images of the two Mylin rifles--one on the tripod is the Lancster Historic Society--other is the one coming up at Julia's Auction.

PLEASE DO NOT COPY FOR PUBLICATION - they are under copyright.

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Patrick Hornberger

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Author Topic: Rifle On Julia Auction Site (Read 19404 times)

Tony Clark