Author Topic: How did 18th century makers acquire brass sheet?  (Read 7760 times)

Offline smart dog

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How did 18th century makers acquire brass sheet?
« on: June 30, 2014, 06:44:06 PM »
Hi Folks,
While making thimbles from smooth perfectly even sheet brass that I purchased, I began wondering how the old makers acquired sheet metal for their thimbles, patchboxes, and flat wire inlay.  Did they have rolling mills to squeeze out sheet from cast ingots hammered thin?  Were there commerical suppliers of sheet metal in the bigger cities or imported?  Do rolling mills show up in any of the inventories of gunmaker's estates?

dave     
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docone

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Re: How did 18th century makers acquire brass sheet?
« Reply #1 on: June 30, 2014, 06:58:01 PM »
Brass was melted, poured into a mold, then planished to thickness.
I have used some some of those tools, and they work quite well. Back then, they saved every scrap of everything.
You had to replenish zinc on every melt. That is the white stuff on the flask, and mold frame.
Gives a person foundry disease for a couple of days.

Offline Acer Saccharum

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Re: How did 18th century makers acquire brass sheet?
« Reply #2 on: June 30, 2014, 09:37:50 PM »
A lot of banging on sheet metal, back in the day.  :D
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kaintuck

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Re: How did 18th century makers acquire brass sheet?
« Reply #3 on: June 30, 2014, 09:54:28 PM »
I have a friend that will take some sheet metal, and roll it and pound it until he has a cowling for a piper cub or whatever he is building....fantastic to watch him work this metal~and when he's done, it just needs sanding and painting.

IF you know how to work metal, it can be done! ;D
marc

Offline Nordnecker

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Re: How did 18th century makers acquire brass sheet?
« Reply #4 on: June 30, 2014, 10:29:12 PM »
Perhaps a bit off topic but here it is for what it's worth. I think most people really underestimate the resourcefullness of our colonial forbears. About 2 miles from my home is Menokin, the home of Frances Lightfoot Lee, signer of the Declaration of Independence. The Menokin project really just got up and running 10 or 12 years ago. The house was a ruin, basically a pile of rubble, stones , and a big brick chimney. Anyhow, I helped catalogue and store a good bit of this material. One thing that impressed me was the house had a skylight- in 1787 or whenever it was built. We found pieces of lead flashing that had sealed up the skylight. The lead was not "sheet", it was thick, like 1/2" thick, formed into complex shapes. Another impressive feature was the hinges on the exterior doors. They are BIG butt hinges, exquisitely forged and fit. They are not simply nailed or screwed to the door. They are dovetail shaped and are morticed into the edge of the door. Wedges were then driven in to secure them, no visible fasteners. they are not removeable and the pins do not rise. In other words, You ain't takin' em off to plane a little off the bottom of the door, and you ain't gonna steal them either. The only way you can see them is the door frame rotted away and exposed one side of them.
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Offline smart dog

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Re: How did 18th century makers acquire brass sheet?
« Reply #5 on: July 01, 2014, 01:41:02 AM »
Thanks everyone,
As somone skilled using a planishing hammer to make sheet for jewelry, I can appreciate the process of making sheet metal on a small scale.  However, Dickert and others eventually made rifles on government contracts at a fairly large scale.  Were all the sheet metal components made from sheet formed on a small scale by the gunsmiths?  We pride ourselves on "American ingenuity" but a major example of that is the ability of someone to understand a need that could be the source of a lucrative business, and then satsfy that need.  Were there no sheet metal suppliers to the gunsmith, tinsmith, and silversmith trades in America?

dave
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Offline tallbear

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Re: How did 18th century makers acquire brass sheet?
« Reply #6 on: July 01, 2014, 02:07:56 AM »
Dave

I know a good deal of it was imported.Check out Eric Kettenbergs' site he has excerpts from the PA Gazette that lists brass and steel plate several times.Also if you get a chance check out the book "Hammer in Hand" about the Dominy clock makers here in East Hampton NY in the 18th century.His ledgers are in there showing all kinds of neat things he was ordering and getting from the local "store" .

Mitch 

Offline Acer Saccharum

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Re: How did 18th century makers acquire brass sheet?
« Reply #7 on: July 01, 2014, 02:12:49 AM »
From: http://myweb.tiscali.co.uk/clydebridge/History%20of%20Steel%20Plant.htm#RollingMills

Quote
Rolling mills have been used, in association with slitting mills since the 1590s for producing iron strips. Early rolling mills were small and water driven, such as the one still in existence at Wortley Ironworks Lower Forge in Sheffield.

Wider iron sheets, for making tinplate, were produced by John Hanbury in about 1720, and in 1784 Henry Court (of puddling furnace fame) was using grooved rolls to produce round and other sections.

I suspect that brass sheet could have been imported from the UK and purchased in Philly.


Lots of material on Wiki: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rolling_%28metalworking%29
« Last Edit: July 01, 2014, 05:17:48 AM by Acer Saccharum »
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Offline smart dog

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Re: How did 18th century makers acquire brass sheet?
« Reply #8 on: July 01, 2014, 02:29:00 AM »
Hi Acer,
Where is that quote from?

Thanks and take care Tom,

dave
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Offline okieboy

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Re: How did 18th century makers acquire brass sheet?
« Reply #9 on: July 01, 2014, 04:53:01 AM »
 Although I know a lot about modern metal manufacture, I know that I have a lot to learn about earlier methods, I know that gilt was produced by hammering methods. I was looking at a small hand cranked rolling "mill" on EBay for a jewelers use, and I know that opposing roller systems have been around a long time as exampled by the wooden mangles used for wringing water for washed cloth. That sheet goods could have been produced by a variety of methods would be no suprise.
Okieboy

Offline Acer Saccharum

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Re: How did 18th century makers acquire brass sheet?
« Reply #10 on: July 01, 2014, 05:18:28 AM »
Dog that is Smart, see I edited my post above with links.
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Offline smart dog

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Re: How did 18th century makers acquire brass sheet?
« Reply #11 on: July 01, 2014, 02:13:20 PM »
Thanks Tom and everyone who replied. 

dave
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Offline Acer Saccharum

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Re: How did 18th century makers acquire brass sheet?
« Reply #12 on: July 01, 2014, 04:40:58 PM »
I have worked on a lot of large door locks from the 18th C, and they are made primarily of sheet iron, all riveted together to form the box. The internal workings on English work is generally iron, while the internals on American work is generally brass.
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Offline Ryan McNabb

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Re: How did 18th century makers acquire brass sheet?
« Reply #13 on: July 01, 2014, 08:18:17 PM »
They ordered it from Ye Track of Ye Wulff.

I would think that a sand mould for a piece of sheet would make a good "leftover" mold to catch unused brass from the main pour.  If you didn't have enough to fill the whole mould, who cares, there would still be some usable sheet.

Offline Acer Saccharum

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Re: How did 18th century makers acquire brass sheet?
« Reply #14 on: July 01, 2014, 09:11:39 PM »
Scrape all the sand off the casting, which may mean taking it down quite a bit. Pound for a while, anneal, pound some more, anneal, etc, repeat until the desired thickness is obtained.

Whenever I can buy sheet, I do, brother McNabb.
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Offline Ryan McNabb

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Re: How did 18th century makers acquire brass sheet?
« Reply #15 on: July 02, 2014, 04:20:58 AM »
Scrape all the sand off the casting, which may mean taking it down quite a bit. Pound for a while, anneal, pound some more, anneal, etc, repeat until the desired thickness is obtained.

Whenever I can buy sheet, I do, brother McNabb.

You don't mill it down from a square block?   ;D

Offline whitebear

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Re: How did 18th century makers acquire brass sheet?
« Reply #16 on: July 02, 2014, 07:46:22 PM »
They ordered it from Ye Track of Ye Wulff.



Robby you beat me to it!

 I figure that they would melt the brass and pour a sheet then roll and hammer it to the appropriate thickness.
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Offline Dan Fruth

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Re: How did 18th century makers acquire brass sheet?
« Reply #17 on: July 03, 2014, 04:14:34 AM »
This topic was discussed before...http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=18059.msg169448#msg169448...Gary B had the answer...........Dan
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Offline smart dog

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Re: How did 18th century makers acquire brass sheet?
« Reply #18 on: July 03, 2014, 02:29:35 PM »
Hi,
Thanks.  The link to the older thread was very informative.  I suspect that makers used commercially rolled brass when they could get it, planished their own ingots when they had to, or some might have had small rolling mills. 

dave
"The main accomplishment of modern economics is to make astrology look good."