What the heck do we have here?

[frontier gander]

Was walking out of a pawn shop today and as I was leaving, nicely said, get some muzzle loaders! He chuckled and asked if Im interested in a 58cal (possibly a 54cal) over under pistol. Now that got my interest! He went in the storage room and came back out with this. He has no clue what it is, how old, how much its worth, and I havent a clue either.

Your thoughts?






Trap door hiding a screw that I assume holds the stock to the main frame?


ZERO markings anywhere externally on this thing. It also uses musket nipples which are really worn down and out of shape.

[Old Ford2]

I love it!
I have no idea what it is either.
Any markings on it???
Bore size ? Inch or metric, will help a little.
Looks to be British??
It seems too large for a dress pistol. would be a little heavy with those long double barrels.
Please tell me more if you can.
Best regards
Fred

[SCLoyalist]

A howdah pistol?    Dixie Gun works has a very similar antique gun on their website.

http://www.dixiegunworks.com/product_info.php?products_id=11787

[Hungry Horse]

 I agree, its an over and under Howdah. Side by sides were more common, but O/U versions are known as well. They were used a lot in the early African hunts as a last ditch back up for dangerous game, and in India on tiger hunts. I've never seen one in anything but large calibers.

                   Hungry Horse

[Daryl]

I expect this one is made in the US - thus not a Howdah pistol.

The styling of this pistol reminds me very much of Henry Deringer's work in belt or holster pistols. I am surprised it is not marked with the maker's name - thus again, not a Howdah. Howdah pistols were of higher grade and of English make as far as I know - for carry while hunting in India.

Howdah pistols were of large bore - .54 to .58 is NOT a large bore, but a normal size for a coach pistol or holster (horse) pistol in the US. The only .577 calibre ie: small bore Howdah pistol I am aware of (not to saying this is definitive proof) is a .577 Snider 4 barrel pistol of the ctg. era- ie: .577 Snider ctg.

.54 calibre pistols, mostly military but civilian as well, found much favour when shooting buffalo from horseback.  The saddle carried two pistol holsters, one on each side at the front, for the holster pistols.

 A .54 or .58 round ball would not be very effective "in the Howdah" where they were used for repelling tigers who were trying to kill the hunters in the Howdah.

Muzzleloading pistols made for the Howdah were of large bore, generally 16 to 10 bore - with 2, side by side barrels. Pedersoli makes a modern Howday, of 20 bore.

I agree that the breech/fence/hammer relationship looks to be English as it is correctly designed, however the US makers also knew how to breech cap lock firearms properly back in the 1800's.

It was only with the reproductions in the 1960's onwards, that proper breeching knowledge went missing in the interest of cutting costs of mfgr.

In my opinion, of course.

[WadePatton]

Did you make an offer? 

He has next to nothing in it for sure.  Those fellows don't gamble much on unknowns.  But then the owner may come pay off his loan...if it's not "for sale" yet.

Best of luck, I'd be trying to "collect" it for sure.

[frontier gander]

well hes already told me he wants $650 but hes open to offers. What do you guys think its worth? The bore was in really good shape. No cracks in the wood either.

[Hungry Horse]

 Does that thing have straight rifling, or twist? And, what approximate twist?

                Hungry Horse

[WadePatton]

I don't want to claim any knowledge of the value of the short gun, especially without seeing the bore and lock mechanism, but that you should know that his pricing indicates he's likely into it for 100-200, how much margin he'll settle for will be a function and his mood and cashflow and and your trade-in (hardy har).  Good luck, negotiating can be a lot of fun, and is a learned skill.

Depends a lot on how deep your personal stack of mad money runs too.   

[mountainman70]

Imagine pulling this bad boy on someone wanting to do you harm!!!!probably have a heart attack,an ya wouldnt have to get it dirty.lol,fine piece of history.Hope your pockets are deep'nuff.Dave

[heelerau]

 First thing came to mind, a Howdah pistol, tigers take some stopping. 

[Daryl]

First thing came to mind, a Howdah pistol, tigers take some stopping. 

Fine for persons bent on doing harm - too small for angry, 400pound cats.

[SCLoyalist]

I copied one of the pictures over to Muzzle Loader's Assoc of Great Britain's forum,  and the only response so far is that the lack of any proof marks suggests maybe an Indian made Howdah pistol.

It would be interesting to get more precise measurements of bore diameter and barrel length.  Those barrels may be a bit bigger than .58.

And, not that Wikipedia is the final authority in firearms history, but their article on Howdah pistols says that "British officers adopted them for personal protection in other far-flung outposts of the British Empire,"  so maybe some of them were made up as smaller calibers.   

[Daryl]

Sounds as if Wikipedia thinks all English pistols are Howdah pistols.
I do not believe that all English multi-barreled hand guns were Howdah pistols. Since this one is unmarked, which is strange as it's quality seems high, it may have been made in the US - or India - or perhaps was re-finished and thus stamps removed?

[Pete G.]

Just buy the stupid thing!!!

How many others have you ever seen for sale?

[frontier gander]

At $650 thats a big risk for something that could be indian made and just a wall hanger.

[Dphariss]

At $650 thats a big risk for something that could be indian made and just a wall hanger.

Thats not made in India. Probably US made of English components. Though by the time this was made there was a lot of quality stuff being made here as well.  Its unlikely that an Indian made wall hanger would have rifling or metal work of that quality.
But unmarked 650 is probably top of the market.
Dan

[Mercian]

Well I'm a new guy to this forum from over here in England, can I just say what ever it is it certainly looks sweet to my eye, in fact I think it would make a very nice accompaniment to my two Baretta over and under percussions.

[hammer]

I have seen similar at shows here in the UK.    From the pics I would judge it is a typical 1850-ish British or Belgian self protection pistol of good quality and in good condition.   The design of the butt trap and material might lean towards Belgian.   These were expensive firearms.    The simple engraving suggests a utilitarian pistol.   Similar pistols were carried by colonists and by officers in the Crimea.   The use of top hat caps might lean towards a military connection.   But then they could be got everywhere, others may not, and a big bore requires a big flash.    The trap in the butt would be for spare caps.    I would be surprised if it were built outside Europe.   The one oddity remains the absence of proof marks and makers name.   Which doesn't, in my opinion, detract from its desirability but certainly does from the collectors market value.