Manton Double Trigger Plate - Mock up added

[Curtis]

I had the time this weekend to start making a trigger plate for my Howdah pistol project.  I was looking through the scrap pile for an appropriate piece of sheet metal and spotted a mangled scrap from a heavy duty lawnmower deck that got ripped from it's host.  I figured it might be fun to make it into something useful.





After a little pounding and vice work I had it straight enough to hack out a suitable piece.





After a little cleanup I drew on some reference lines and sketched the outline.



Now to start removing the excess that does not look like a trigger plate.





After I completed filing it to shape, I did a little draw filing for final cleanup:





I cut the trigger slots and now it's time to make a block to hang the triggers from, I cut off a piece of 1/4" thick angle iron:



After trimming to a more appropriate length and shaping it some for a little more British character:



It will probably be a couple of weeks before I get the opportunity to finish the plate and forge the triggers, If anyone is interested I will try to post more when I get them completed.

Thanks for looking,
Curtis

[sydney]

Hi--Yes please post more on your project--I always have an interest in
        that type of project
          Sydney

[Ryan McNabb]

Very cool.  Please show the rest of your work, especially how you do the double barrels.

[Glenn]

Very interesting project.  Please post your advancements when you're able to.  Thanks for sharing !!! 

[dbraw]

I am in the process of building a double barrel flintlock shotgun. Therefore, this trigger work is very helpful. Keep posting pictures.
Dan Brawner

[Hessian]

looks great. looking forward to the rest.

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

What a great project!  Curtis, I identify 100 % with this sort of build. If I may make an observation:  The boss of steel you've created out of angle iron - You have the idea of pinning the triggers high, but the metal for'd must be thick enough to receive the stud on the trigger guard ( about 1/4" long and threaded ~ 1/4 x 28 tpi) and the tang screw coming down from above, usually in exactly the same place.  So in a perfect world, you will require about 1/2" of steel there, which of course, includes the trigger plate to which the block is attached.  I hope that all makes sense.

[Curtis]

Thanks guys!

Taylor, good eye, why am I not surprised!  Yes your comments all makes sense.  I am using Bill Brockway's excellent book as a general guide for this project, and he mentions and illustrates that traditionally the trigger guard and tang bolt share a common hole.  He also illustrates on many contemporary works the tang bolt is in front of the trigger guard stud.

I originally cut a 1/2" x 3/4" cube to use for the trigger boss (from my old friend the railroad spike) but after a little study of my build I decided on the 1/4" angle.  The angle is not attached to the trigger plate as of yet, and I don't have a lot of labor invested at this point, so I still have the option to use the steel cube and configure the stud and tang bolt in the traditional manner.



The more I think about it, the more I think I may want to get my locks built and inlet before I commit to either shape of trigger boss.  

Thanks for the input.

Curtis

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

I think that's better Curtis.  But before you attach it to the plate, file some draft on the edges of the trigger plate, as it's easier right now than it will be after the lug is attached.

[Acer Saccharum]

Just a thought: Any curve of the plate will be impossible with a big lug soldered to it.  Curve your plate first, then fit the lug to the curve.

[Curtis]

Great comments guys!

Taylor, it doesn't show well in the photos but there is a slight draft (3 or 4 degree) filed on the plate.

Acer, you are most correct.  Since this is going on a pistol there will be a LOT of curve on the back half of the trigger plate, I need to be certain of my positioning before I start bending things and will have to file a radius on the bottom of my trigger boss to fit.  I think I will be welding the boss instead of soldering, as I would like to try color case on the furniture for this project.  That is Taylor's fault for getting such good results on the pistol grip Hawken.

I have been having some discussion off this board with TOF concerning design issues he had to overcome on a Rigby rifle he built.  The Rigby is a single barrel/single trigger gun however it also has a standing breech and many other similar design traits.  I will try to elaborate on those issues here as I work through them.

Curtis

[Acer Saccharum]

I think you can color case at about 1500. If you use a higher temp braze, you'd be OK color casing, as long as you don't exceed the melt point.

[T*O*F]

Any curve of the plate will be impossible with a big lug soldered to it.  Curve your plate first, then fit the lug to the curve

Little or no curve is required for the plate.  It is inlet straight down.  Because of the way the triggers are constructed and hung, any bending of the plate won't allow it.  A slight bending of the tail of the plate is allowable but must be behind the trigger slots.  A slight mortise will be present in the wood at the tail of the plate.  When the trigger guard is screwed on to the plate and inlet into the pistol grip, it will fit into this mortise and hide the rear section of the plate.

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

Tom:  I am going to try adding an item that has been hard soldered, in my next pack hardening adventure.  I want to see if it comes apart...a pretty profound indicator of internal temperatures.

Curtis:  following Bill Brockway's book will keep you on the right path for your Howdah double pistol.  There isn't too much that is different between the double shotgun and the pistol you're building.

I have some great images of a percussion Howdah that has always turned my crank...

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

Dave:  we don't often enough give you credit for your talent...that's very nice clean work.

[jerrywh]

 Just a small tip. If you braze that lug on the plate with copper you won't have to worry when you case harden it. You can flux the whole plate with oven flux and use a .002 copper shim for the job. Another way is to case harden the parts first and then solder with low temp silver solder at 430°F or lower.  lots of ideas. 

[Curtis]

Just a small tip. If you braze that lug on the plate with copper you won't have to worry when you case harden it. You can flux the whole plate with oven flux and use a .002 copper shim for the job. Another way is to case harden the parts first and then solder with low temp silver solder at 430°F or lower.  lots of ideas.  

Jerry, it is always a pleasure to read your bits of information, and this example should prove quite useful.  I can't say how much I am glad you took the time to post it.  I have spent many hours digging through your posts on this board and the old one!  What temperature does it take to make the copper flow?

Curtis

[Curtis]

I will try to get some mock up photos of my trigger, standing breech and sear layout and post them in the next couple of days, a picture is worth, well a LOT of words.

Curtis

[Acer Saccharum]

Curtis, please do a test braze on scrap of similar sizes, so that you learn what the materials need to come out successfully.  Make sure your FLUX can handle the heat required. Your local welding shop can provide fluxes of the right heat range. Once the flux burns, nothing flows.

[T*O*F]

Taylor.  Thanks for the compliment.  Generally speaking, I am not one who actively seeks them and seldom show any of my work other than for illustrative purposes.

I think I told Curtis several years ago to spend twice as much time thinking as working because things you do now can bite you in the behind later on.  He did a nice job on the plate, but may have gotten ahead of himself.  It's a fairly complex piece with 4 other components depending on its proper layout and spacing, but he'll figure it out.

[jerrywh]

Curtis.
  I recommend this flux for copper brazing.
http://www.weldfabulous.com/p-69148-black-paste-flux-1-pound-jar.aspx?CAWELAID=320010420000433027&CAGPSPN=pla&catargetid=320010420006281330&cadevice=c&gclid=CN6v8IPUyr8CFUZbfgod4CEAhA

I used this for brazing shotgun barrels together when I want to heat blue them.  Flux the surfaces with the shim between them. Flux the whole piece with lots of flux.  I use it in a furnace and clamp the parts together then wrap them in stainless foil. Some copper may spread on to other places but it will sand off. I have copper brazed with a torch and used borax as a flux. It might be easier to case harden first and then low temp silver solder. Or tix.

[Curtis]

Excellent information Jerry!  I will see about getting some of the black paste flux.  

Perhaps sometime you could tell us a little more about the oven you built for brazing and other tasks.  I remember reading a little about it in some very old posts but don't recall many details on how you constructed it.

For others out there following this, I looked up some melting points:

Brass, Yellow  1660 - 1710 f
Brass, Red      1832 f
Copper           1983 f
Silver, Pure     1761 f
Silver, Coin     1615 f


Curtis

[jerrywh]

 Curtis. Maybe you should use pure silver. If you don't have any send a self addressed and stamped envelope to me and I will send you some .003 0r .005 pure silver.

[Curtis]

Jerry, I sent you a PM. 

Curtis

[Curtis]

I took a few moments this evening and made a mock up of the trigger plate and a trigger to see how things would line up with the standing breech, lock bolt and sear.  I will be making the trigger guard from scratch so I feel positive I can make that function properly in the mix.

It appears to me that it will all work together.  Which means I got very lucky on this one.  Dave is very correct in his suggestion to think twice as much as you work, I should have made a mock up before I started cutting on the trigger plate.   This has been illustrated thoroughly in the thread about set trigger issues.

Here is what I came up with, and a little more tweaking is still possible if necessary:





Curtis