Surface hardening

[Frank]

What is everybody using to harden their small parts like triggers and sears now that Kasenit is no longer available?
Thanks

[Curtis]

Muzzleloader building supply sells something called "cherry red" used the same as Kaseinite.
I have some but haven't tried it yet.

Curtis

[James Wilson Everett]

Guys,

I use a mix of 1/3 hardwood charcoal, 1/3 leather charcoal, 1/3 bone charcoal.  This is an age old case hardening formula that I got from somewhere ( I forget where ).  I make the charcoal the same way as making charred cloth, a metal container with a few small holes.  Fill the container with the material and stick it in the coals of a fire.  When the smoke stops coming out of the holes, remove the container from the coals and let it cool.  Bone charcoal - I bought a box of bone meal at a garden shop.  To case harden I put the small parts in a sealed metal container that is filled with the charcoal.  I use a small lead melting pot with a flat steel plate for the lid.  Put the container in the fire and heat it red hot, for a long time, like when I have a nice fire in the fireplace on a cold evening - several hours.  Then remove the container from the fire and let it cool.  Take the parts out and reheat them to cherry red and quench in brine.

At one time I tried to dump the red hot mix of parts and charcoal directly into the brine - a big mistake.  Bad scalds on my forearms - ouch!  Also, don't try to caseharden parts made from 12L14 steel, often used for screws, it doesn't work well.

Jim

[Bob Roller]

Cherry Red seems to work.I have hardened some double set triggers with it and using HEAVILY nitrated water I was able to get subdued colors.Kasenit will make colors but seeing as it's now out of production and subject to whatever is "out there".I bought a small container of Cherry Red from Log Cabin at Friendship last year to test.
I think one major industrial supply quoted about $40 a pound.

Bob Roller

[whetrock]

Best price I have found so far for CR was Pieh Tool Company. Currently 19.90 a pound for the small can, plus shipping.
http://piehtoolco.com/contents/en-us/p10932_Cherry_Red_Hardening_Compound.html

(Haven't tried it yet, or I would post a review. Just received it a few days ago.)

[JPK]

Look up my post on camp fire color case, it isn't hard to do. I've done 12L14 in my normal heat treat oven with good results many times.

[David Rase]

I am somewhat in agreement with James on this.  I case harden all my parts with bone/wood charcoal and then temper as needed.  The one big difference is that I buy my charcoal from Brownell's in lieu of making it myself.
David 

[Bob Roller]

Is that breech block for a Freund/Sharps?

Bob Roller

[smart dog]

Hi,
I also case-harden parts in charcoal but products like Cherry Red and Kasenit are really nice for small quick jobs like hardening screw heads.

dave

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

I harden all of the small crews for a longrifle or a Hawken.  I hate seeing screw heads, a few years after the rifle has left the shop, that are all boogered from ham-fisted folks with poor fitting screw drivers.  I use a product called 'Hard-n-Tuff'  It is a green powder and my can of it came from a saw mill near my town, supplied to me by a benevolent mill wright about thirty years ago.
With this stuff, I heat the screw, and 12L14 tang and lock screws harden just fine, to a good bright red and dip the screw into the powder giving it a thorough coating.  Then I re-heat the screw, and cook it for about a minute in the flame of the propane torch. I repeat the process a second time, and after the second soak in red heat, I drop it into a tub of water.  The screw comes out a light grey colour with some dark and green areas where some of the compound did not flush away.  I burnish the screw in a four inch wire brush in the drill press which gives the screw an even colour.  A file will not cut 'em!  So far I have seen no need to draw the temper.  These screws are difficult to damage the slots.

[greybeard]

I am somewhat in agreement with James on this.  I case harden all my parts with bone/wood charcoal and then temper as needed.  The one big difference is that I buy my charcoal from Brownell's in lieu of making it myself.
David 

You can get bone charcoal at stores thst sell goldfish.   Bob

[jerrywh]

 For small parts I use potassium ferrocyanide. for big stuuf I do the same as Dave Race.

[Dr. Tim-Boone]

How do you use the K4Fe(CN)6 Jerry?

[David Rase]

  for big stuuf I do the same as Dave Race.

Correction, I do the same as Jerry.  You were the one that taught me.  I got to give credit where credit is due.
David

[JPK]

Bob Roller, you're very perceptive, that is for a Freund/Sharps.

[Bob Roller]

The radiused camming surface and the twin extractor slots gave it away.
Is there any proper forum for these types of rifles??

Bob Roller

[jerrywh]

 I use the potassium ferro cyanide the same as kasinite. IWhen I started making guns you could buy almost anything and I bought about 1/2 gallon of the stuff. You might be able to get it at a chemical lab supply. Do Not get this confused with potassium ferri cyanide. Ferro cyanide is not so dangerous providing you use your head and don't breath it or eat it. The ferri cyanide is very dangerous. Ferro cyanide works better than kasinite.

[davec2]

Potassium ferrocyanide is actually included in the table salt you eat.  It is an anti-caking agent and, in aqueous solutions, it is harmless.  Same is true for calcium ferrocyanide.  They will both case harden steel by driving both carbon and nitrogen (nitriding) into the surface of the steel at elevated temperatures.  Kasenit was mostly calcium ferrocyanide but also had some barium carbonate in it to accelerate the transfer of carbon and nitrogen into the surface of the steel or iron part.  The boron also transfers into the steel surface and will help harden it (boriding).

[jerrywh]

Dave2 is a certified genius and helped me immensely when figuring out how to silver solder shotgun barrels together without oxidizing or warping them. I talked to some of the best shotgun smiths in the country and they said it couldn't be done. We did it. 

[davec2]

Jerry gives me too much credit.  I talked about brazing barrels.  Jerry actually did it !!!!!!! 

[Dr. Tim-Boone]

Ordered some of the potassium ferrocyanide.  Do you heat the screws first and dip them in the powder or .....??

[jerrywh]

 Dr. Boone.
  Yes you have to heat the screws first or the stuff won't stick to them. It comes in a light yellow small crystal form. You can smash it up into a powder.

[Acer Saccharum]

Jerry and Davec2, did Boutet braze his barrels? If not his work, what historical precedent led you into researching and doing this?

This is off topic, so maybe a new thread would be appropriate.

[jerrywh]

Acer.
 All the Belgian and French barrels I have ever seen were brazed together however they did it different than we do today. I believe they were brazed in a furnace but the exterior of the barrels were not to finish size. They were hand planed to size after brazing. There is a great book called three centuries of liege gun making that tells a lot about the processes. They used basically the same process until about the first world war. Boutet was in charge or the armory at Versailles and the liege works both for some time. Notice that old time Belgian shotgun barrels often have one side of the bore thinner than the other. That is the result of the hand planning process.    I have some 18th century French flintlock barrels and the yare brazed. 

[Acer Saccharum]

Good sleuth work on the off-center bore, the result of planing. Barrels brazed could be heat blued with no danger of separating. Thanks for the info, Jerry.