Author Topic: Does anyone offer graver sharpening?  (Read 9708 times)

Thawk

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Does anyone offer graver sharpening?
« on: August 08, 2014, 11:23:46 PM »
I have tried to get a correct edge on my gravers.  I'm doing something wrong.  I am fairly sure I could maintain and edge once it was correct.  Does anyone offer putting correct edges on gravers as a service?  Eventually I will be able to do this but it's hard to learn to engrave when you have zero confidence in the edge you have on the gravers.  I plan on taking a class when I can manage it but right now there isn't vacation time available to do it. Any ideas?

kaintuck

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Re: Does anyone offer graver sharpening?
« Reply #1 on: August 09, 2014, 12:00:34 AM »
i wish we could send our chisels to somebody also~ i have a few that i just feel they are right!
anybody????

docone

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Re: Does anyone offer graver sharpening?
« Reply #2 on: August 09, 2014, 12:10:57 AM »
Just get one of these. I do it by hand, a diamond wheel does the trick, but, this does well,
http://www.riogrande.com/Product/Crocker-Graver-Sharpener/118059?Pos=1
I also use an elaborate fixture that is a compound sharpener fixture. GRS makes it.
26* for carving, 45* or thereabouts for engraving, 56* for stone setting, raising a bead.

Offline J Henry

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Re: Does anyone offer graver sharpening?
« Reply #3 on: August 09, 2014, 01:09:02 AM »
  Check who you bought it from,they might. Some of the Engravers on this site must sharpen or know who does...
 I went to the top of this page,"Search", third from the left, typed it "gravers"  up comes lots of information. Try  it,might be just what you are looking for..
« Last Edit: August 09, 2014, 01:20:47 AM by J Henry »

Offline Mark Elliott

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Re: Does anyone offer graver sharpening?
« Reply #4 on: August 09, 2014, 03:19:42 AM »
Given that all edged tools need to be honed/sharpened after 20-30 minutes of use,  it is something that you need to learn to do yourself.   You will not be proficient with the tool until you learn to properly sharpen it.   

Offline T*O*F

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Re: Does anyone offer graver sharpening?
« Reply #5 on: August 09, 2014, 03:50:58 AM »
Quote
I have tried to get a correct edge on my gravers.  I'm doing something wrong.

My first question is "what kind of gravers do you have?"  That might be the problem.  Are you using 1/8" or 3/32" graver tips or store bought gravers designed for hand pushing?

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I am fairly sure I could maintain and edge once it was correct.

One almost needs a fixture system to get repeatable edges.  Ya really gotta be an expert to do it by hand and it will probably be different every time you sharpen.  One of the Lindsay sharpening templates is probably the most inexpensive way to go.  The GRS Dual Angle fixture is expensive but worth it if you sharpen a lot and use different profiles.  The Crocker unit sucks.  The only thing I've found it good for is sharpening my small, straight wood chisels.
 
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Does anyone offer putting correct edges on gravers as a service?

I am currently making 3 graver sets.  One is for my daughter-in-law to try.  She is very artistic and I think she will pick it up pretty quickly.  One set is for a friend, and the third set will be for sale.  The set will include 5 different grinds, a handle, a walking graver and a hammer head.
Dave Kanger

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Offline Acer Saccharum

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Re: Does anyone offer graver sharpening?
« Reply #6 on: August 09, 2014, 04:14:14 AM »
Before you can engrave successfully, you need to learn how to sharpen successfully.

I learned from Jerry Huddleston, who taught me on GRS equipment.

Yes, you CAN sharpen by hand. With a sharpening fixture, it's so repeatable, and you save so much time.


This is the geometry I use for hammer driven gravers. I can sharpen this style graver by hand, but as you miniaturize your gravers, magnification and sharpening fixtures are no longer optional.

« Last Edit: August 09, 2014, 04:16:42 AM by Acer Saccharum »
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kaintuck

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Re: Does anyone offer graver sharpening?
« Reply #7 on: August 09, 2014, 02:06:25 PM »
Mark, it looks so easy when tomtom is sharpening his "engravers and chisels"......
Sometimes it get right and they will guide thru the wood.....then some, like the deep curved ones.....just escape me...... >:(
I know......I just will keep trying....
Marc

Offline jerrywh

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Re: Does anyone offer graver sharpening?
« Reply #8 on: August 09, 2014, 07:24:26 PM »
 Dido to mark. Sometimes I have to sharpen gravers 10 times a day. Nobody could ever get by sending them out.
 Toms graver geometry will work real well for most people and it is sort of generic but people with big fingers or for some jobs there will be deviations. Sam Alfano has a great CD on sharpening gravers. I learned from a CD or Video tape by Don Glaser from GRS. There is no use even trying to engrave until you learn to sharpen gravers, As you become advanced you will learn that different geometries are necessary for different jobs like doing a nick and dot border. I use a 25° heal for nick and dot because you cannot come out of the cut fast enough with a lower heal unless you are cutting very shallow. there are geometries that only the top engravers use because of the special work they do like chiseling relief scrolls and flowers and doing western bright cut on silver. Almost everything on a conventional long rifle can be done with two gravers.
 When I teach basic engraving I dedicate the whole first day to sharpening.
« Last Edit: August 09, 2014, 07:25:44 PM by jerrywh »
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DFHicks

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Re: Does anyone offer graver sharpening?
« Reply #9 on: August 09, 2014, 11:40:27 PM »
There is a simple tool that IMO is at least as good  if not better than the Crocker guide.  I still have the Crocker guide which as noted above the newer ones are just low quality.  I could never get it to work right.  This little roller guide noted below works fine with a little time and patience and a couple of techniques.  Quality is an issue with these also as they are now "Product of India".  I used it for a while and then broke down and bought the Lindsay System.  I am still not very good at engraving but I do have correctly sharpened gravers. 

DF


http://www.amazon.com/Grobet-36-884-Roller-Graver-Sharpener/dp/B007UPLAOI/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1407615757&sr=8-1&keywords=graver+sharpener

Offline Darrin McDonal

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Re: Does anyone offer graver sharpening?
« Reply #10 on: August 10, 2014, 12:06:15 AM »
I have a Crocker if your interested in it. I don't use it. It is like new.
Darrin
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Colonial Williamsburg
Owner of Frontier Flintlocks

Offline KLMoors

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Re: Does anyone offer graver sharpening?
« Reply #11 on: August 10, 2014, 01:30:56 AM »
I really struggled at engraving until I got the Lindsay templates. I've worked with tools my whole life and can feel when a tool is cutting properly. But, every time I sharpened my gravers they came out different. It was really frustrating. I tried a lot of different tips and homemade jigs but nothing was consistent.  The templates allowed me enjoy the process of engraving. Touching up the tips (which is usually all that is needed) only takes a moment.

Offline Dr. Tim-Boone

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Re: Does anyone offer graver sharpening?
« Reply #12 on: August 10, 2014, 04:43:39 PM »
This simple and relatively inexpensive system makes all the difference in the world!!  Use 3/32 gravers ( you can get here too) and a heavy changeable handle. It is amazing how fast they sharpen and how smooth they cut.

http://airgraver.com/Hand_Engraving_Tools_Overview.htm#GRAVER%20SHARPENING
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kaintuck

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Re: Does anyone offer graver sharpening?
« Reply #13 on: August 11, 2014, 01:04:26 AM »
I went to that web site.....not only will I not be able to engrave, or sharpen the engravers I can't use.....now I seen words I can't even pronounce!!!
 :D :'(

I DO have Tim's address...... ;D

Marc n tomtom

DFHicks

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Re: Does anyone offer graver sharpening?
« Reply #14 on: August 11, 2014, 01:59:38 AM »
Thawk,
This has been a long thread but something I forgot.   If you would like to have a correctly sharpened graver I can mail you one.  It was done with the Lindsay Template Syatem.
This might help you in your quest for graver sharpening information.  I bought up a bunch of 1/8" HSS lathe bit blanks a few years ago.  Made In China but seem to be fine.
You can contact me through the e-mail listed with my name.
DF

Thawk

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Re: Does anyone offer graver sharpening?
« Reply #15 on: August 13, 2014, 05:10:09 AM »
Thanks everyone.  Sorry I've been out for a couple days.  Acer your picture is the one I used to sharpen my gravers.  I could get it to cut but not well.  I'm sure it wasn't sharp enough and wanted to cut deeper and deeper.  I'll look into the tools to help with the sharpening, then keep at it.. 

I may take you guys up on some of your offers.  I'll PM you soon.  This dang J.O.B. thing has me running lately.

Offline kutter

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Re: Does anyone offer graver sharpening?
« Reply #16 on: August 13, 2014, 06:40:42 AM »
I went to that 'airgraver' website,,,,I've never seen so many different approaches to sharpening a graver. I know Steves template system works well,,just didn't realize there were so many choices.
 
I always tried to avoid becoming a professional tool sharpener instead of an engraver, so I settled on 1 point for pretty much everything I do.
I sharpened by hand,,no fixture, no template or jig,,just freehand,,for the first 20 years. That's the way I was taught.
I gave in to a GRS powerhone and fixture when I had to turn to carbide points to cut Winchester 21's.  Still use the GRS but I'm back to Mo-Max and what ever other non-carbide I happen to have handy.
Still do free hand sharpening on liners and manufactured points. They don't fit as easily into the fixture as the tiny lathe bits do. I like the 3/32 but 1/8 will do.



For someone starting out, sharpening a V shape graver (square graver it's sometimes called) can be frustrating.
I know it was for me.

A simpler way to achieve the same look on the work but with a much easier to sharpen graver point is with a 'flat' graver.

Make a fairly wide faced 'flat' graver.  No micro points needed here. A 3/32" or 1/8" width face is fine. You can adjust that as needed later.
Make sure the sides are flat,parallel & 90* with the face.

You won't be using it as a flat to cut (though you can if needed),,but instead be tipping it up on one of it's edges and it becomes a V graver.  Sharpen the face to a normal 45* or 50*.
Then put a clearence grind on the bottom of a few degrees by dragging it backwards on the stone. I like to use the diamond sharpening plates. Nothing fancy,,what ever feels comfortable for control and hand clearance.
Place the tool down flat on the stone or plate,,,pick it up a few degrees and drag it backwards. Should be a nice ,clean, even clearance cut done for you.
Much easier to do on a flat graver than a square graver with it's angled point.

No further sharpening is required.
No 'heel' angle is added to the clearance,, just leave as is.

When using, place the flat face onto the surface as if you were going to use the graver as a real flat graver. Then rotate the graver up onto one of it's front face cutting corners. You now have a perfectly good V chisel to engrave with,,,2 actually counting both corners.
One side will feel more comfortable than the other to use most likely. The tool will cut a wide flaring cut to one side or the other depending on which you chose and how far you lay it down into the work.
If you keep it constant,, it'll cut a nice clean V line of even width.

Best thing about it is that it's a very easy tool to make,,easy to sharpen w/o any special equipment and with it you can reproduce most any engraving you may need to do.


Offline Pete G.

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Re: Does anyone offer graver sharpening?
« Reply #17 on: August 14, 2014, 12:39:19 AM »
Kinda makes you wonder how some of the old time gunsmiths ever managed without all the gadgets and stuff we have today.

Thawk

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Re: Does anyone offer graver sharpening?
« Reply #18 on: August 14, 2014, 05:29:06 AM »
Kinda makes you wonder how some of the old time gunsmiths ever managed without all the gadgets and stuff we have today.
I'm guessing they got a whoopping or the crappiest job in the shop till they got it right.  I admit I'm kinda modern in that I want to do it correctly, right now.  I would really like to find a builder near by that I could annoy constantly.  You get great information on this site but nothing beats personal instruction.

Offline jerrywh

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Re: Does anyone offer graver sharpening?
« Reply #19 on: August 14, 2014, 07:02:35 PM »
 There were engravers 250 years ago that are as good as to days engravers but not very many. Remember, all the books were illustrated with engravings. There were hundreds of   engravers doing that work and probably most of them were just kids in their early teens.
 I often buy old scribners books and magazines from the 1800's to study engravings.
 The trouble with the gun makers in America is they were just like the ones today.
they weren't professional engravers. If all you did was engrave you would get good fast. Another thing is they never watched gunsmoke or sat on the computer half the day. 
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Offline Acer Saccharum

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Re: Does anyone offer graver sharpening?
« Reply #20 on: August 14, 2014, 08:42:01 PM »
Look at the Kuntz engravings, or Simeon North's work. These guys were some of the best American firearm engravers in their day.

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Ramrod scrapers are all sold out.

Offline Dphariss

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Re: Does anyone offer graver sharpening?
« Reply #21 on: August 14, 2014, 09:32:14 PM »
Unless you had someone sharpen 50-100 gravers it would do you little good.
In his Beginning Engraving video Lynton MacKenzie states that he was a tool sharpener who did some engraving on the side.
So one simply must learn what angles work for him and then sharpen the tools. If you do not know how you must learn its simply not possible to engrave or use wood cutting tools if one cannot sharpen them when they need it.
In learning engraving you will do a lot of practice plates and this will result in a lot of sharpening so you can practice both.
McKenzie's videos will explain a simple low cost sharpening system similar to what has been detailed in this thread. The Videos can be bought or they may be rented from Smartflix.

Dan
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Offline Dphariss

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Re: Does anyone offer graver sharpening?
« Reply #22 on: August 14, 2014, 09:38:59 PM »
Just get one of these. I do it by hand, a diamond wheel does the trick, but, this does well,
http://www.riogrande.com/Product/Crocker-Graver-Sharpener/118059?Pos=1
I also use an elaborate fixture that is a compound sharpener fixture. GRS makes it.
26* for carving, 45* or thereabouts for engraving, 56* for stone setting, raising a bead.

When I decided to get serious I found equipment for sale on an engraving site and bought the GRS system cheap almost new. So I use that. Had I not I would probably have gone with the system detailed in McKenzie's videos or ?

Dan
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Offline Kevin Houlihan

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Re: Does anyone offer graver sharpening?
« Reply #23 on: August 15, 2014, 03:32:05 AM »
  15 years ago when I last did some engraving I suffered from the same point sharpening inconsistencies that I am having now after picking it back up.  After attending Acer's great graver sharpening seminar at Dixon's and reading the recent posts I decided that a template system would probably help to get me consistent graver points.  I spoke to Steve Lindsay, and he is sending out a 90 deg template kit which he has modified to accept 1/8" gravers.  Steve was full of information and very accommodating.  I just received 8% cobalt 1/8" lathe bits from ENCO to make into gravers.  These were only about $2.50 each.  I can't wait to get started...
Kevin

Offline T*O*F

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Re: Does anyone offer graver sharpening?
« Reply #24 on: August 15, 2014, 04:00:42 AM »
Quote
he is sending out a 90 deg template kit which he has modified to accept 1/8" gravers.
You can thank me for that.  I have the first 1/8" mandrel he ever made.  I shamed him into making me one when I explained that my graver handles were all set up for 1/8" bits instead of 3/32, which is what he sold.  After suggesting that he might sell more kits to muzzleloading guys, I think he realized the marketing potential to sell his kits.

Quote
I just received 8% cobalt 1/8" lathe bits
I hope you've got a set of diamond sharpeners to grind those dudes down and polish them.
Dave Kanger

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