Original NW Trade Gun Lock ?

[Majorjoel]

I recently picked up a late HBC flintlock trade gun and was hoping to get it in shooting order. A couple of issues with the lock have me a bit perplexed. First, there is no half cock notch in the tumbler. Could this gun have been made this way or has another tumbler been added at a later date?  Next is a problem with the main spring. I compare cocking this lock with setting a bear trap! The spring is just too strong. Would filing the width of the spring down some make a difference in the ease of cocking it?  Any help with this ole bear trap will be most appreciated!    Joel             

[Don Stith]

How about a view of the "innards"?
 I think thinning the lower leaf cross section would be more helpful than narrowing the width of the spring. Don't think I have seen a post civil war Hudson Bay gun before. Interesting.  Percussion tumblers without a half cock are not uncommon.

[Majorjoel]

Hi Don & thanks for chiming in on this! It is always a pleasure to hear from you!  I will get some pictures of the innards when I get a chance to dismantle the lock. You mean file down the lower leaf across it's length from the inside (plate side) edge?  This ole girl is one of the short barrel types (30") in 24 gauge (58 caliber) made in 1870 by Parker Field & Co. London. It came out of a collection in Wisconsin owned by a feller named Tom Steingraber.  I was told that the gun was pictured in a book "Indian Trade Relics" by Lar Hothem.  Anyway, it is in good shape and has a lot of what them road show experts call provenance.     Best to you sir.......Joel             

[Habu]

I've only seen maybe a half-dozen Parker Field NWGs, but as I recall, none of them had half-cock notches.  All of them had monster springs. 

[Don Stith]

Joel
 Thanks for sharing. That is a nice looking trade gun. Much better condition than the two I own.. Only have provenance on one of them and it is minimal.  Got it when Curly was emptying his closets. THat is all I know about it.
  You understood correctly on the spring filing
Don

[Majorjoel]

Well, I find myself being somewhat embarrassed after taking a close look at the locks internals. To my surprise I found that the tumbler does indeed have a half cock notch! It goes back so far that I thought I was at full cock, then back even farther it engages again. A lot has to do with the amount of effort required to cock this piece. I did find the lock speed and sparks produced were very impressive.  Reviewing some of the historical aspects of English trade guns I found speculation regarding the reason for such a large bowed trigger guard. One theory states it was for firing the gun with gloves or mittens.  The other claims it was for a two finger trigger pull.  I can easily agree with the second theory. Two finger ignition makes the pull seem almost light.

[Chuck Burrows]

Joel - Just to make sure - I do believe Don is saying to thin the lower leg of the springs thickness rather than narrowing it width wise - a caveat when narrowing a spring width the ratio is about 1 to 1 whereas narrowing it IIRC is a bout a 1 to 3 ratio (I'd bet Bob Roller would know) i.e. narrowing has a lesser effect than thinning - so when thinning in particular use extra care and check often - also it's best to polish out any file/sanding marks as they can cause a "break point".

Anyway that's pretty much what I learned from my Dad, a master machinist and Aerospace/Mechanical Engineer, beaucorps years ago.

[Habu]

Well, I find myself being somewhat embarrassed after taking a close look at the locks internals. To my surprise I found that the tumbler does indeed have a half cock notch! It goes back so far that I thought I was at full cock, then back even farther it engages again.

Will the hammer fall from the half-cock notch?  I coulda sworn they didn't have one.  Now I've got to go talk Doc into letting me tear apart a couple of his trade guns.

[Steve Collward]

Joel:
  Very nice looking gun and looks to be in excellent shape.  Thanks for posting.
One question.  In the photo showing the inside of the lock, there are 4 small notches above the mainspring on the lock plate.
I've seen this on other antique gun locks, but not sure why they were put there.  Would you happen to know why?
Thanks.

[Don Stith]

Steve
 That is lock number four in the assembly. The same four file strokes should be on every part on the lock, if none have been replaced. In some cases those marks may be on every piece of that gun.

[Majorjoel]

Very interesting and informative information about those 4 notches Don!  I did not know this. Habu, this lock will fire at half cock as there is no fly between the notches. That is another reason my earlier conclusion of it not having a half cock position. I have had an interest in these trade guns for many years and have read many articles and books regarding them. Seeing the changes made over many years of manufacture and development has been a good education, and one I keep learning about new things every day.  Studying many pictures of pieces made from the late 18th century onward into the late 19th has been kind of superficial. There has never been any talk about the stiff functioning operation of the lock mechanism. Perhaps it is just this one piece. I plan on studying as many examples hands on in the future before drawing any more conclusions on this matter. That will also keep me from doing any filing on the mainspring until I learn more.                                                                                                               Another interesting discovery on this gun was a name stamped into the wood inside of the ramrod channel.  Only the first three letters are legible but I believe it is a name all in capitol letters.  I appreciate all of the reply's with this and apologize to the forum and moderators for where I have placed this thread. Please feel free to move into either the antique or back fence area's.       

[Shreckmeister]

Joel,
    Thanks for the lesson.  I would never have guessed that flintlock trade guns of that style were
still being produced in the 1870's.  Never in a million years.....   Nice find.

[FlintFan]

From the photo it "appears" that the mainspring on the lock is still the original one.  If after examining it in person you agreed it may be original to the lock, I would strongly suggest leaving the original spring alone.

If you want a lighter spring, make a new one, or fit a commercially available one to it.  If you have a TOW catalog, it should be pretty easy to match up their full size photos with your mainspring, and find something that could work.  

There have been countless original guns that have been ruined because present day owners tried to make them into something that they thought suited them better.  

If the mainspring looks to be original, my humble opinion is to leave it alone, future owners will thank you for it.

[Jim Chambers]

Please don't touch the mainspring.  When guys complain about the mainsprings in our locks being too strong I usually ask them if they have ever cocked an original lock that still has its original springs.  If they had we wouldn't be having this conversation.  Original locks in the 18th century often had very heavy springs and a long throw.  This lock is a perfect example.  IMHO it would be criminal to mess with it.  As you said, it makes a lot of sparks like it is supposed to do.  Study it and enjoy it the way it is.

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

I agree completely with Jim Chambers on this.  In your effort to make this gun into something that you'd like to shoot, you would thin the spring making it similar to other locks with which you have experience, but departing completely from the way they are supposed to be made.  next, you'll lighten the engagement of the full cock notch, to get the trigger pull nicer, and end up with a lock that jams in the half cock when you fire it.  So the cycle is now starting to turn into a whirlpool.

There are lots of guns to shoot.  If it were mine, I'd savour it for what it is...and that is surely a keeper!!

[firelock-inc]

You have a very good NW trade gun by Parker Field.

Get over the idea of shooting this gun!

I have no idea where you got it or what you payed for it,
the current collector value is from $3,500 to over $5,000.

Put it back in the vault and build a new gun!

Thanks for sharing

[Chuck Burrows]

Joel,
    Thanks for the lesson.  I would never have guessed that flintlock trade guns of that style were
still being produced in the 1870's.  Never in a million years.....   Nice find.

FYI - Hudson Bay Co was still selling both percussion and IIRC flintlock guns up until the first years IIRC (1910 rings a faint bell but I'd have to look)

[Don Stith]

Joel
 I agree with the guys recommending you not modify, nor shoot this gun. At least you  know more about it than you did before posting

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

I find it interesting that there appears to be a factory installed rear sight.  Yet matches for smoothbored guns (trade guns) specify no rear sight above the plane of the barrel.

It's a very credible  collector in remarkable condition.  envy happening here.

[Majorjoel]

  All of this great advise is heartily taken. I will not ever shoot this gun, nor put a file to the lock spring. It has done very fine over the many years without my attention and under my watch will remain so.  As Taylor noticed the rear sight that the gun came with is actually mottled, that is, shaped and formed out of the barrel metal itself.  Thanks to all for your advise!   

[firelock-inc]

Joel:

The marking that we are seeing in the wiping rod channel
is the stock maker for Parker Field & Sons for the 1870 contract.

This is a very nice untouched H.B.C. gun that would fit nicely into my
collection!

What a great find!

Rickp

[Chuck Burrows]

I find it interesting that there appears to be a factory installed rear sight.  Yet matches for smoothbored guns (trade guns) specify no rear sight above the plane of the barrel.

It's a very credible  collector in remarkable condition.  envy happening here.

At the Museum of the Fur Trade, where there is one of the largest collections of NW Trade guns, something like 10-15% have rear sights - either factory installed or field expedient (one type of the latter is nothing more nor less than a section of barrel chiseled up and filed to shape.) The smoothbore match rules were set back in the early 1970's before such info was widely spread and also IMO to lessen the chance of an arms race. Always thought that perhaps two trade gun matches should be set up - one with and the other without sights.
Here's another well used and heavily tacked NW gun with a rear sight

[Habu]

OK, I removed the locks from a couple of Parker Field NWGs.  One had never had a half-cock notch, the notch had been removed on the other.  Both have seen some heavy use.  He has a third, but that has been converted to percussion, with the tumbler and hammer probably coming from a Springfield musket. 

[Dry Baller]

 Joel,

 Very interesting and informative thread.

 You certainly have a prize there....enjoy it!

[Dphariss]

Sure its been mentioned here but...
Never narrow a spring to reduce its strength. When is gets weaker it will be ruined. Reduce the thickness of the entire lower leaf. uniformly unless its not properly tapered in thickness.

Dan