Author Topic: Pan Covers (protrusions)  (Read 28117 times)

Offline Bob Roller

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Re: Pan Covers (protrusions)
« Reply #50 on: August 23, 2014, 02:18:09 AM »
OUTSTANDING!! And I was criticized by some saying I was using a mid 19th century mechanism in the Twigg locks I made using the externals from Davis.
Thank you for posting these fine locks and the gun.
Bob Roller
« Last Edit: August 23, 2014, 11:38:16 PM by Acer Saccharum »

Offline Captchee

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Re: Pan Covers (protrusions)
« Reply #51 on: August 23, 2014, 03:00:54 AM »
 im not sure where they get that  from Bob .  but who knows .
 i just got home and have yet to look for my photo . however  going to the Drake web site , they have a Moore. while a diffrent gun , they do have  some very good photos of the inside of the locks and the pans being attached to the barrel .
 for those who do not have a link to the Drake auction site , here is a link .
  you  can also see the inside of the Moore  lock on that site
http://www.sitemason.com/page/gQRJdK

Jim , you will also note  that  they have a better photo of the Lids that Moore used .
Ill post it here  as i have already posed a link to the web site



« Last Edit: August 23, 2014, 03:05:45 AM by Captchee »

Offline David R. Pennington

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Re: Pan Covers (protrusions)
« Reply #52 on: August 23, 2014, 03:20:36 AM »
If I'm thinking right the protrusion would force the priming out evenly in the pan to exactly the same levels each time and in theory result in more consistent ignition times?
VITA BREVIS- ARS LONGA

Offline Bob Roller

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Re: Pan Covers (protrusions)
« Reply #53 on: August 23, 2014, 03:27:57 AM »
Captchee,
Once again,elegant,simple mechanisms that are very similar to the ones I like to make.
I have fun trying to copy these but am having to cut back to 4 or 5 jobs a month.
Thanks again for the pictures.

Bob Roller



Offline Jerry V Lape

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Re: Pan Covers (protrusions)
« Reply #54 on: August 23, 2014, 05:30:14 AM »
One feature of all of these locks that appealed to me is the length of the lower arm of the mainspring on all of these locks.  There is nothing currently being made with such mainsprings.  Is there a performance advantage in the longer springs? 

Offline Bob Roller

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Re: Pan Covers (protrusions)
« Reply #55 on: August 23, 2014, 05:57:17 AM »
The Twigg locks I made had long lower limb mainsprings and
the long lower and upper limb seem to distribute the stress
much better that a short one. I made the percussion lock on
a pistol last year that had a 2" lower limb and I thinned it out
and tempered it to be softer but I still thought it was stiff and
not flexing properly.

Bob Roller

Offline Larry Pletcher

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Re: Pan Covers (protrusions)
« Reply #56 on: August 23, 2014, 06:28:27 AM »
Regarding Jerry Lape's question, the Manton that I timed was from a fowler owned at that time by Lynton McKensie.  (I do not know who owns it now.) It is pictured on page 70 of the  Vol. 4 Historic Arms Making Journal: http://www.blackpowdermag.com/a-study-in-lock-timing/

(The photo is scanned from my paper copy and is low quality compared with the excellent photos we have had posted here. However someone may be able to determine something about its age compared with the ones here.)

Regards,
Pletch
Regards,
Pletch
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Offline Captchee

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Re: Pan Covers (protrusions)
« Reply #57 on: August 23, 2014, 01:36:57 PM »
 Last night I was studying the Moore locks that are shown on the Drake site , a little more .
 In one of the photos  with a little more  angle from underneath , I swear I can see a small screw   maybe 2 ,going up into the lid. “Page 1  photo number 9”
  I have never noticed that until now.

I must am afraid apologize , Bob . For the life of me I cannot find  my lock photos that carried the rest of the French SXS. I do however recall the lids  and a photo showing  them even more clearly . Ill keep looking though  .

 But anyway as to the original question .
I would agree with Acer in that  at the end of the flintlock Era , many of the higher quality makers , were doing a lot of different things to try and set themselves apart so as to claim  their work was just alittle better then the next persons .
If for any reason folks began to think that something actually worked , then you see a lot of makers doing it .
Take note of the Cock shape .  Distinctively Manton. But  as we have shown, the same type of cock was also used on Durrs , Moore and several others .
 Yet we don’t often see that style of cock on  reproduced locks .

Offline Bob Roller

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Re: Pan Covers (protrusions)
« Reply #58 on: August 23, 2014, 02:28:18 PM »
Captchee,
No need to apologize.I have had similar experiences in looking for pictures.We have a neighbor whose grandfather was a close friend and somewhere I have a picture of him I took in 1967 looking thru the
scope of his rifle and I told her she could have it but now I can't find it.It's here someplace.
   I have a book,one of a volume of four that has a story called "Fuses,Flints and Pyrites"and it speaks of
finely crafted flintlocks and tine gold lined pans.Apparently a lot of the work done with flintlocks at the
end of the flint era was done to obstruct the arrival of fulminate ignition.It was said that the use of sure fire
fulminates would make war such a horror that nobody would dare to start one anywhere.
The story finishes by telling that the grandson of man telling the story is at this moment being fitted for a new
percussion double gun in the celebrated shop of Manton.

Bob Roller

Offline Jim Kibler

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Re: Pan Covers (protrusions)
« Reply #59 on: August 23, 2014, 06:09:39 PM »
Thanks Capatchee.  I'm surprised to see this, even though it's on a very late period flintlock.

Jim
« Last Edit: August 23, 2014, 07:15:05 PM by Acer Saccharum »

Offline bgf

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Re: Pan Covers (protrusions)
« Reply #60 on: August 24, 2014, 01:41:11 AM »
Cool locks, Captchee!  My guess is they sold it as rainproofing or other practical benefit, but I wouldn't be shocked to learn it also helped the maker pass the daylight test! 

I've seen enough evidence that I no longer feel obligated to spend time filing off the protrusions...

Offline Captchee

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Re: Pan Covers (protrusions)
« Reply #61 on: August 24, 2014, 03:31:56 PM »
Quote
obligated to spend time filing off the protrusions...

 well im not sure i would go that far LOL
 Personally  I have never really concerned myself  about them  being there , one way or another .
 My reasoning for  posting is to show historic reference for their use  and to note that they do show up now and then  on higher end  , later , locks .

Past that  if one  should file them off or not .??? that’s up to you . But I would have to Agree with Jim Chambers in that  for  the  most part , I don’t recall ever seeing such a lid on a lock commonly used  for an American long rifles. Im also 100% sure he has seen far more originals then I .  .  So if your holding true to  reference , then surly one would want to remove the offending  casting area  even if one was using a lock  that may have original had such a protrusion  .


Again though,  as far as historical reference of locks being made , for what ever reasoning , with such a   lid protrusion ,  be it for water proofing , alignment ,  part of a self priming design  . As a way of leveling a powder charge  or as Jim said ; As a way to  block the light  so as to make the lid appear to fit tighter then it actually does, ………………….
I would have to say  that IMO there is a very slim likelihood that  we could come up with something completely new  and thus un seen in a historical context of firearms manufacturing. Simply put , more often then not , we are just reinventing the wheel

Offline Bob Roller

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Re: Pan Covers (protrusions)
« Reply #62 on: August 24, 2014, 03:56:08 PM »
NONE of the locks on American long Rifles in our Art Museum show 1/2 the sophistication of these that Captchee has shown.These locks will spoil ones appreciation for the ordinary,competent useful gun lock
of the American rifles.On the other hand,it must be noted that if one of these superb English locks does break a component,it must be taken to a shop that understands it.The locks found on most American rifles are basic
mechanisms that can be repaired with a lower level of skill using common tools.
Recently I was discussing the Duesenberg car with a friend and he asked me if I would buy one to use every day had I been a wealthy man in the 1930's.I told him no,I would not. Even in that time frame it was not an easy car to get repaired outside of a large city and there is nothing other than spark plugs that will interchange with other makes.I would have bought a Packard because of wide spread service in nearly any town.

Bob Roller

Offline Acer Saccharum

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Re: Pan Covers (protrusions)
« Reply #63 on: August 24, 2014, 04:01:50 PM »
Simply put , more often then not , we are just reinventing the wheel


..and the wheel we have invented takes far fewer man-hours, but it ain't as nice as some of those perfected high end locks. This is not a complaint, for you get an awful lot for your money these days when you buy a lock. Hand finish work has been done in the mold, and very little hand fitting and filing is required to produce a lock. The assembly has been sped up with jigs and HSS tooling.

To get a lock like the ones in Captchee's photos, I would guess $1500 might get you a reasonable facsimilie, unengraved.
Tom Curran's web site : http://monstermachineshop.net
Ramrod scrapers are all sold out.

Offline Bob Roller

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Re: Pan Covers (protrusions)
« Reply #64 on: August 24, 2014, 06:07:59 PM »
Several years ago I was in contact with a man in England whose web page had a superb example of a 4 pin rebounding lock for a breech loading shotgun.I asked him about the price in today's money and he said it would be about $3000 for a pair and that DID include the hammers. I would say the much more labor intensive flint lock would be much more.
The locks we have today are much better than they were in years past. Most are investment castings and it seems that quality control from foundries may be better.I know that in years past,the words "quality control" represented an alien concept.I was told that the quality control I wanted would bankrupt a government and my response was "It ought to be the standard across the whole product line".
Just last week I delivered a lock based on the fine Late Ketland from Chambers to a Canadian friend at the CLA show and the quality of the external parts was excellent and an easy lock to mount up a linked mechanism on.

Bob Roller

Offline Dphariss

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Re: Pan Covers (protrusions)
« Reply #65 on: August 25, 2014, 05:11:05 AM »
I have thought of, but not tested, a lump soldered on the bottom of the pan that covers the touchhole when the frizzen is closed. When the friz flips open, the vent is uncovered, no matter how much powder is in the pan, and no matter how much the gun has been toted around.

These were called vent scrapers i believe some were vented, some not. But the locks that had them were usually assembled and fitted to the gun far better than than most work done today.



This is on a reproduction Manton lock made from TRS castings.

I don't know of they accomplish anything or not.
Dan
« Last Edit: August 25, 2014, 05:11:52 AM by Dphariss »
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Offline Dphariss

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Re: Pan Covers (protrusions)
« Reply #66 on: August 25, 2014, 05:52:39 AM »
If I'm thinking right the protrusion would force the priming out evenly in the pan to exactly the same levels each time and in theory result in more consistent ignition times?


I doubt it. I think this was an attempt to improve waterproofing(?)  I would think that the ledge would tend to pack the powder and this could reduce spark penetration into the prime. The Manton V pan was set up to somewhat divide the powder in the pan.
I will say this. At the time there were so many "bells and whistles" being patented that I have seen on newspaper cartoons about it. I think some of this was for the cool or "different/wow" factor as much as actual improvement. These guys were vying for business with the landed gentry, peers, the Royal Family etc and were doing things to show how good they were or how "cool" hoping to get attention. Being able the cut "Maker to HRH" on your guns meant something.
The late English FLs were exceptional in quality and function. But when well done they were expensive. But when build best grade guns and rifles price was not important.
W. Greener in "The Gun" from about 1835  talks about locks and how one must take care in buying them since the middle quality locks, from outward appearances  were hard to tell from the best quality. The book is available for internet download but harder to find than W.W. Greener's "The Gun and Its Development" which went through a lot of reprints from the late 19th into the early 20th c.



I finally found all the high end lock photos, I came to this one late. Thanks to all for posting these. They are always a treat.

Dan
He who dares not offend cannot be honest. Thomas Paine

Offline Bob Roller

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Re: Pan Covers (protrusions)
« Reply #67 on: August 25, 2014, 01:50:31 PM »
I saw a cartoon spoofing the patent mania in England and it depicted a "Patent Gun" that went off in every possible direction and killed everything around it.

Bob Roller

Offline Captchee

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Re: Pan Covers (protrusions)
« Reply #68 on: August 25, 2014, 02:11:58 PM »
I saw a cartoon spoofing the patent mania in England and it depicted a "Patent Gun" that went off in every possible direction and killed everything around it.

Bob Roller

LMAO  you need to post that Bob .

Dan .
 Interesting .
 Myself I have  for some time been of the opinion that the vent scraper/ priming gate ,  was nothing more then an un drilled self priming  lid .
 I wish I could remember the context  in which I first read it . Maybe in the writings of  Col. Berkley Lewis  ?.
 But I recall reading that the  originally the vent scraper was  to  cut the prime on a self priming pan .
  From what I understand , the thought was that , do to the large flash hole , a gate was needed to cut the prime so as not to have a continues line of powder from the pan to the main charge , this creating a fuse type burn  to the ignition .
As the self priming designs fell from favor , some  kept the  nub as a way to keep the prim away from the face of the flash hole .

 I also  originally though the adaptation of this type of lid was an attempt at trying to make the pan more waterproof . Possible that may have been the original intent .
 But that  idea went south when I first ran across  a late French piece  which had a V notch cut to the out side of the pan .
 Its rather hard to visualize , but if you look at the French lock I posted , you will see a   engraved molding around the  top edge of the pan . In the center the molding V’s .
 On the specific lock  that V was cut  into the pan .

At first I though this could have been simply gas cutting  as the piece have been  badly treated  as well as seen very heavy use . But then I later ran across  several different works which  showed purposeful venting of the pan  lid .
 
 If you look at the photos I posted of the Charles Moore , and also those on the Drake web site ,  what we see is that Moore Vented the pan . Not only that but its also lined .
 So not only did he go so far as to place a flash hole  liner in the  main flash hole , but he also placed a lined  flash hole in the pan .  That added flash hole  in the pan ,would seem to me to negate any benefit   of any such water proof lid .
 Add into that , the application is on a SXS . Which would then mean that one would have to be extremely careful not to  roll the gun over  while in the carry , for if you did you would expose one a the vent to  moisture.
so why do that if the  intent of the protrusion one the lid was  to help with the water proofing  ?

  My take on it , and I have no supporting documentation for  it. But my take on it is that the protrusion is possibly a progression  of the self priming  design and any water proofing  derived from it  was just an added benefit .
 If we look closely , many of these type of locks, have the protrusion drilled  as in the V pan Manton  or notched as  Pauly and Moore did  . Thus with the frizzen closed , powder from the loading of the main charge can enter the pan .
 The protrusion on the bottom of the lid , would then   reduce the  volume of the pan .
 Thus you end up
* being able to have the flash hole  at the top of the pan .
* Powder being forced to the bottom of the pan  and held  low in the pan by the protrusion
* Reduced  amount  of powder  from the back of the main charge  continuing to  work its way  into the pan  while in the carry . 
Which would happen to a greater existent  with a  pan of larger volume/ without the protrusion  . Thus   moving  the main charge farther away from the pan  as the pan continued to fill   until such time as it reached its  capacity.
« Last Edit: August 25, 2014, 03:01:25 PM by Captchee »

Offline Bob Roller

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Re: Pan Covers (protrusions)
« Reply #69 on: August 25, 2014, 02:54:31 PM »
I think that the cartoon appeared in a book called "The age of Firearms"by Robert Held.
The local library had a copy that I used to check out from time to time.I don't know if
it is still in print or not.

Bob Roller

Online James Rogers

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Re: Pan Covers (protrusions)
« Reply #70 on: August 25, 2014, 05:28:31 PM »


Offline Dphariss

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Re: Pan Covers (protrusions)
« Reply #71 on: August 25, 2014, 07:46:26 PM »
Thats the cartoon I was thinking of.

Dan
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Offline Dphariss

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Re: Pan Covers (protrusions)
« Reply #72 on: August 25, 2014, 08:06:26 PM »
I saw a cartoon spoofing the patent mania in England and it depicted a "Patent Gun" that went off in every possible direction and killed everything around it.

Bob Roller

LMAO  you need to post that Bob .

Dan .
 Interesting .
 Myself I have  for some time been of the opinion that the vent scraper/ priming gate ,  was nothing more then an un drilled self priming  lid .
 I wish I could remember the context  in which I first read it . Maybe in the writings of  Col. Berkley Lewis  ?.
 But I recall reading that the  originally the vent scraper was  to  cut the prime on a self priming pan .
  From what I understand , the thought was that , do to the large flash hole , a gate was needed to cut the prime so as not to have a continues line of powder from the pan to the main charge , this creating a fuse type burn  to the ignition .
As the self priming designs fell from favor , some  kept the  nub as a way to keep the prim away from the face of the flash hole .

 I also  originally though the adaptation of this type of lid was an attempt at trying to make the pan more waterproof . Possible that may have been the original intent .
 But that  idea went south when I first ran across  a late French piece  which had a V notch cut to the out side of the pan .
 Its rather hard to visualize , but if you look at the French lock I posted , you will see a   engraved molding around the  top edge of the pan . In the center the molding V’s .
 On the specific lock  that V was cut  into the pan .

At first I though this could have been simply gas cutting  as the piece have been  badly treated  as well as seen very heavy use . But then I later ran across  several different works which  showed purposeful venting of the pan  lid .
 
 If you look at the photos I posted of the Charles Moore , and also those on the Drake web site ,  what we see is that Moore Vented the pan . Not only that but its also lined .
 So not only did he go so far as to place a flash hole  liner in the  main flash hole , but he also placed a lined  flash hole in the pan .  That added flash hole  in the pan ,would seem to me to negate any benefit   of any such water proof lid .
 Add into that , the application is on a SXS . Which would then mean that one would have to be extremely careful not to  roll the gun over  while in the carry , for if you did you would expose one a the vent to  moisture.
so why do that if the  intent of the protrusion one the lid was  to help with the water proofing  ?

  My take on it , and I have no supporting documentation for  it. But my take on it is that the protrusion is possibly a progression  of the self priming  design and any water proofing  derived from it  was just an added benefit .
 If we look closely , many of these type of locks, have the protrusion drilled  as in the V pan Manton  or notched as  Pauly and Moore did  . Thus with the frizzen closed , powder from the loading of the main charge can enter the pan .
 The protrusion on the bottom of the lid , would then   reduce the  volume of the pan .
 Thus you end up
* being able to have the flash hole  at the top of the pan .
* Powder being forced to the bottom of the pan  and held  low in the pan by the protrusion
* Reduced  amount  of powder  from the back of the main charge  continuing to  work its way  into the pan  while in the carry . 
Which would happen to a greater existent  with a  pan of larger volume/ without the protrusion  . Thus   moving  the main charge farther away from the pan  as the pan continued to fill   until such time as it reached its  capacity.

These are all things that were not properly documented from our standpoint at least.  We in all likelyhood will never know  and can only give it our best guess concerning something like the "vent wiper" or what ever it is on the pan cover, or why the L&R 1700 and 1100 and perhaps others have the raised ledge on the bottom of the pan cover.  ?


Dan
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Offline Captchee

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Re: Pan Covers (protrusions)
« Reply #73 on: August 25, 2014, 08:09:36 PM »
 LOL wonderful cartoon . all its missing is the title " Modern muzzleloader " LOL

Offline WadePatton

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Re: Pan Covers (protrusions)
« Reply #74 on: August 26, 2014, 06:24:00 AM »
Thanks fellas, this has made a decent thread.   ;)
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