Pan Covers (protrusions)

[Larry Pletcher]

snipped. . . . . As to powder banked against the touch hole, I believe Larry Pletcher's experiments showed this was no problem at all.  I think this condition was found to be slightly faster than having powder cleared from in front of the hole.  Perhaps he will comment.

In my tests banking the prime against the barrel produced the best times.  The complete test was a rather involved one.  I divided it into parts to make sure I left no stone unturned.  The link here is to the intro: http://www.blackpowdermag.com/pan-vent-experiments-an-introduction/   

Parts 3 and 5 deal with the powder location in the pan and the effects of powder placement.

Regards,
Pletch

[smylee grouch]

As BJH noted, the English maker Manton made locks with the projection on the bottom of the frizzen. I think it was one of his later style locks.

[Bob Roller]

When did they go back to 1095 for frizzens?Bill Cox said they were using 52-100 and it was better.

Bob Roller

[WadePatton]

When did they go back to 1095 for frizzens?Bill Cox said they were using 52-100 and it was better.

Bob Roller

I have inquired for clarification on the matter.

[WadePatton]

Let me give you guys a little history of how that projection (or dingle berry as I call it) came to be.  One year at Friendship I was talking with Bill Cox at his booth, and we were laughing and joking about the "Friendship test."  At that time it seemed like everyone shopping for a lock there at Friendship would pick up our locks, close the frizzen, hold the lock up to the sky to see if they could see light through the pan.  Often, they would judge the quality of the lock based only on that test.  We named it the "Friendship test."  Jokingly I suggested to Bill that we should make a small projection on the bottom of the pan cover that would prevent those guys from seeing any light no matter how bad the frizzen fit the pan.  I was just joking, but next thing I knew Bill had added the projection to his frizzens.
Historically, I have seen several locks with a raised lip around the pan that is recessed into the pan cover portion of the frizzen, but I have never seen anything like the projection hanging down.

Dingleberry, Uvula, and now we has the rest of the story. Thanks Jim! 

[WadePatton]

1095 was the previous metal Tim now informs me.  That he quoted it from habit.

So once again my longrifle friends, Bob Roller is right!

52100 bearing steel is the current L&R frizzen/cover material.

[Captchee]

I have thought of, but not tested, a lump soldered on the bottom of the pan that covers the touchhole when the frizzen is closed. When the friz flips open, the vent is uncovered, no matter how much powder is in the pan, and no matter how much the gun has been toted around.

 kinda like the frizzen  for a  a self priming pan. But leave the  gate  on the frizzen un drilled .
 also as to the  thing hanging down in the  pan .  Manton , Nockas well as Moore,  i believe both added those to their frizzen  as a way of making them more water resistant

[WadePatton]

I have thought of, but not tested, a lump soldered on the bottom of the pan that covers the touchhole when the frizzen is closed. When the friz flips open, the vent is uncovered, no matter how much powder is in the pan, and no matter how much the gun has been toted around.

 kinda like the frizzen  for a  a self priming pan. But leave the  gate  on the frizzen un drilled .
 also as to the  thing hanging down in the  pan .  Manton and Nock  i believe both added those to their frizzen  as a way of making them more water resistant

So you didn't read Jim Chambers' post?


Feel free to use any cover shape you like.  I'm of the well-fitted "flat lid" school.   

[Acer Saccharum]

I thought of the frizzen lump before the Pletcher test results came out. I read the Pletch material, and then forgot to wash my brain of bad material.
 

[RAT]

Wade... I always thought the little knob hanging down from some top jaw screws resembled to the dingleberry/uvula at the back of the throat.

[Vomitus]

I had to go look at my big ole RF English lock by Chambers. I have it on a Colonial style SB. Danged if it doesn't have the "dingleberry"pan....BUT, this is one of the fastest locks I have! Sparks like a grinding wheel, even with those chippy french flints. Only lock that may be a tad faster is my Late Ketland by Chambers. On the RF English offering,Taylor made the pan to frizzen fit perfect. Lots of times up here we're shooting in the rain and snow so that little "dingleberry" protrusion is a welcome thang!

[Captchee]

No disrespect to Jim  and  yes i read Jims post . what does that have to do with anything ?
 i can respect his reasoning for the modification of his locks .
 but it doesn’t change the fact that  many historic makers  did the same thing .

 Self priming pans have very much the protrusion Acer was speaking of . which served to wipe the flash hole face of powder  as the  frizzen was forced open .

 but anyway ,. tell me what you see on the bottom of the lids of this Charles Moore ?


or how about this Frenchy  kind of a bad angle but you can just make out the protrusion on the bottom of the lid


also  i seem to recall Jim Kibler  , i think it was , posted a photo of a very nice set of original french locks with raised  pans and concave  lids  that were gold plated ?
 

[WadePatton]

I saw a gold pan with a ledged cover.  That's a bit different.  

I think we're getting "original history" and "recent history" confused.  I take what Jim Chambers said to mean that there was a change in the shape of the covers of L/R locks that came subsequent to lots of lookiloos fondling and not buying at Friendship.  

I'm not here to argue the shape of covers.  I asked about a performance advantage/enhancement and the best claim is "weather proofing".  

I simply do prefer to be able to file a nice clean fitment without having to resort to transfer paper or ink or soot (as one might do in order to fit the un-flat covers).  If i find the weather threatening, then I grease the edges-which i would do no matter the cover shape.

The absolute last thing I intend to do with any thread is to create a new "rift" in the fellowship of rocklockers.  I asked a question, and presented some information.  I am thrilled with my L&R locks and their forged mainsprings and the information L&R has given me about their metals.  I am likewise thrilled with the Ketland lock Bob Roller made for me.  I will consider Jim's Ketland next time I buy a lock, but am lock poor presently.  This is no witch hunt.

Please do fit and use whichever cover shape best suits your purposes. Thanks for participating.

[Bob Roller]

Those locks are superb.The Moore's are fascinating. Are those pans fastened to the breech and NOT integral with the lock?Also,is it possible to see the insides of these locks,both English and French?
Thanks for showing these.

Bob Roller

[Acer Saccharum]

Capt, thank you very much for posting those two guns. Fabulous.

In the late 18th and early 19th Century, a lot of experimentation went into developing reliable and fast flint ignition. Flash hole wipers, charge shaping pan covers, etc.

Gun were sold on the premise of the best workmanship and the fastest ignition, particularly for wing-shooting.



But they didn't have Pletcher's high speed video.   

[JB2]

WOW!  Those are some purty locks!  I see why they've got Mr. Rollers' interest up!

[Jim Kibler]

Captchee,

I'm not convinced either of the locks you've shown pictures of represent what is being discussed.  It's very hard to tell from the angle of the photographs, but on the Moore lock, I suspect the projection seen is simply a wiper to block the touch hole.  On the second lock, the angle is even worse.  I don't think there is enough information to conclude it is a projection that fits the entire pan as in the case of the L&R locks being discussed.  Based on my experience and the photos presented, I certainly wouldn't draw the conclusion that "many historic makers did the same thing".  Personally I've never seen such a projection and based on Jim Chambers comments, I don't think he has either. 

Jim

[Dr. Tim-Boone]

I primarily use Chambers Locks because I am familiar with all of the dimensions and that makes it easier to use; however I built a SB with a Davis Late English a couple of years ago and fitting the lid to the pan was not an issue at all. Very smooth and quick lock comparable to the Chambers Late Ketland if you want something different. I am building a Mtn rifle with the late Ketland now and can't wait to shoot it!!

Wade I guess you can do what ever you want with your lock.... I would be willing to bet the piece of metal on the lid you are talking about won't make any difference one way or another...more research for Pletch to play with!!  This vocation is for fun...right??

[Captchee]

Bob , I have somewhere more photos of both locks as well as a complete set of photos for the V Pan manton
Ill see what i can do about  running them down .
 yes the pan is acryaly attached to the barrel not to the lock
Jim .
 the moore is a complete  projection from the lid . not a nub for a self prime . same goes for the french lock . its just smaller

[Bob Roller]

Captchee,
Many thanks. Can you also send the pictures to me at <bobroller@frontier.com> in addition
to posting them on the forum?

Bob Roller

[Jerry V Lape]

Try this photo from Lewis Drake website.  Recessed breech flintlock with extreme V pan and a self priming hole in the V. Looks like the pan simply mates up to the boss on the breech; the pan being attached to the lockplate.  

Bob I know you can do this!  

[Acer Saccharum]

Veeery nice breech work on that double. Great photos, too. Thanks for posting.

The raised rib in the pan.....overlaid with gold....What is the theory behind that?

Notice how substantial the hooks are are the noses of the lock. This gun is very fine, yet built like a truck.

[Dr. Tim-Boone]

Looks like the v shaped pan might have been self cleaning...??  gas coming out of the vent would blow carbon straight out. The hole in the frizzen lid looks like it might have been intended for self priming?   and the V shaped bottom of the frizzen with the gap might actually have held powder close to the vent?  

Common some of you engineers..what the function here..? assuming form follows function??

[Jerry V Lape]

I think the V shape was intended to increase the powder surface exposed to the sparks upon fring.  The divider in the bottom may have been to divide the self prime and in gold to prevent the sharp edge of the V causing a spark upon closing; or to prevent gas cutting from the vent.  If you visit the Lewis Drake website there is an even later Manton flintlock where instead of the V he uses a rounded pan bottom which would also spread the powder for a greater spark catching surface.  As Pletcher has told us before, the original Manton he tested is still the fastest lock so Manton knew something about how to attain quick ignition.  It might be interesting to see which Manton version Pletcher tested. 

[WadePatton]

the photos from Jerry's post above: