FITP

[Natureboy]

   It seems that there are a lot of things you have to know if you want to live in the 18th century.  I've gotten a lot of good advice on this forum, so here's another topic.  I've worked out a good basic load, plus ball size (530) and patch material (linen), lubed with Hoppe's #9 Plus, and accuracy has improved such that I just put 7 rounds into a 2.5-inch group at 50 yards.  But I'm still getting the occasional FITP, so I'm wondering which factors might be causing this irritating aspect.  Here's my procedure:  I'm primarily a target shooter, with occasional trail shoots with my BP club in Sandy, Oregon.  I wipe between shots, and pick the vent then to push out any fouling which might have been pushed into the vent.  After loading powder and PRB, I pick the vent again, prime with Goex 4G, and I still get what I consider too many FITP.  The vent in my gun is drilled to 3/32, but isn't centered on the pan--it's about 1/16 to the rear.  Other than that, it's located flush with the top of the pan, which I've seen in all of the close-up photos on the web.  In all the TOW descriptions, they mention that the vent is centered on the pan.  So is this the problem, since mine is 1/16 back?  The delay caused by a FITP isn't a big deal at the range, but on trail shoots the other shooters in my group would have to wait for me to re-prime and try again.  What is a common frequency of FITP when everything is done correctly?

[smylee grouch]

It doesnt happen alot but there are those few times when your prime is too far away from the vent and you might get a flash in the pan. Larger locks with large pans come to mind.

[smallpatch]

I don't want to sound like a smart a**, but..... I shoot all day without EVER running a cleaning patch, never pick the touch hole, and have NEVER had a FITP. Now, I've had Poor spark, and no ignition of the prime, but never a FITP.
If you have a good, tight, patch and ball, with a good lube, you shouldn't have to either. No patch between shots=no FITP???
Just a thought.  Especially with that huge touch hole.  Flinters are just not that complicated..
Hope this helps.

[Natureboy]

  I've seen a number of opinions on this before:  bank the prime against the vent; bank it away so the flash is directed toward the vent; use just a smidgen of powder; use a lot.  I have an L&R Queen Anne lock, using 3/4" flints.  TOW recommends 7/8, but the L&R people say 3/4.  Is the position of the vent a problem?  I've tried not picking the vent, and it's FITP every time I do that (or, rather, don't do it).  If I use a lot of prime, the bottom of the frizzen flattens it out anyway.  Perhaps I should be more scientific about it and write down the procedures which seem to work and those which don't.  Shooting 20 rounds each time I go doesn't give me a very good sample.

[Virginiarifleman]

Natureboy, you say 2.5 inch groups at 50 yds with your 54 Cal. try a .535 RB with a spit patch of ticking and see if that group tightens.

[Natureboy]

  And here I was thinking that I was doing pretty well, shooting out my 1.5" orange disk.  I have a box of 535s, so I'll try them.  With the 530s and linen, I can ram without hammering on the ball.  Is ticking thinner than linen?  My spit tends to dry up when I see those redcoats coming with their bayonets.

[Scott Bumpus]

stop wiping between shots and the fitp will stop.  you don't need to and it pushes crud into the vent.   nuff said

[Curt Lyles]

Natureboy Switch to neetsfoot oil for patch lube ,quit wiping between shots as you wont need to ,and prime with 4 ffff and work some in the touch hole with your pick and I think this will stop your problems. I never ever prime the pan on any of my rifles more than half full ,usually less even when huntin . I just don't find it nessisarry and my rifles seem fast enuff for me.JMHO Curt

[Natureboy]

  Idiot question:  is the neatsfoot oil that folks use for their boots the same as that used for patch lube?  I've been searching the web for local suppliers like gun shops and all I find is the leather stuff.

[smallpatch]

Yes, but go to a tack shop and get 100%pure neatsfoot oil.

OR just use the next best thing to spit... A little water and some water soluable oil.

[WadePatton]

  Idiot question:  is the neatsfoot oil that folks use for their boots the same as that used for patch lube?  I've been searching the web for local suppliers like gun shops and all I find is the leather stuff.

same stuff.  but avoid "neatsfoot compound", which is neatsfoot oil cut with petroleum oils.

[Curt Lyles]

Farm and Fleet ,TSC or Rural King should have it ,I use a grease lube( bear ,deer ,tallow,neetsfoot.) instead of a water base lube because I want it to be the same as my huntin load and spit or a wet lube don't work for me .I think the most important part is workin some 4ffff in the touch hole,just keep the pan wiped clean and dry.

There are a lot of ways of makin these flinters work ,so when you find a good combination be sure to ALWAYS take notes .Curt  JMHO

[Dphariss]

stop wiping between shots and the fitp will stop.  you don't need to and it pushes crud into the vent.   nuff said

This depends on the application and the lube used.
In our turkey matches as a friend stated, "You don't have to wipe, you only have to wipe if you want to win".
Hunting is different and used different lubes. Pushing fouling into the vent is caused by technique and equipment. Not very wet good sized patch, loose jag pushes jag past the fouling then drags it back out on the up stroke. Repeat with the other side of the same patch. Then dry patch one patch using both sides. I never have FITP unless I don't put powder in or happen to get a flake of fouling in the vent.

Dan

[Standing Bear]

Need to know more about the rifle. Is it a flat breech plug or one with a patent type?  I shoot both with no problem or very little. And this w  5/64 touch holes. Balls are .005 under bore size w .018 - .024 patch and I wipe every shot with a damp patch one time in and out. Next shot I use the other side of that patch.

If u have one of the patent breech plugs I suspect the main charge is not getting close enough to the flash and as there is a turn from the flash hole to the chamber of the breech even picking the hole doesn't get the job done.
TC

[bob in the woods]

Also, …How close  is the vent to the face of the breach plug ?   with the vent being not centred to the pan, if it's too close to the breach face, you might be building fouling there which is inferring with the vent

[George Sutton]

Do you have problems at the beginning of the shoot or do you start having problems after taking a few shots? Try picking the vent between shots. There was an earlier post that talked about picking the vent and the comment was made that "I only pick the vent if I get a FITP". In my opinion that's too late.

I pick the vent every shot. With your vent being off center, you may have to do the same thing and if that doesn't work, you'll probably have to live with what you have.

Centershot

[Bob Roller]

I always left the vent pick in the hole when I loaded.It MUST be removed to prime the pan.

Bob Roller

[bob in the woods]

Another thought- If you have a drilled vent i.e. no liner, you should be able to install a liner [ white lightning ] which could bring your vent to the centre of the pan, as well as improve your ignition   

[Natureboy]

  I wipe between shots, in and out in two strokes, then I pick the vent to push any crud out which might have been deposited in the vent by the cleaning patch.  I also pick the vent after ramming powder and ball.  I've thought about having the vent drilled and a liner installed, if the hole for the liner can
thus be moved forward.  My original desire, when discussing the style of gun with the gunsmith, was to have something close to what my colonial ancestors would have owned when they were minutemen and militia soldiers in both the Seven Years' War and War of Independence, and those guns didn't have liners.  If I continue to be frustrated by FITP, which occurs about every fifth shot, I'll see if a local machine shop, whose employees are all seriously gun fans, can do the job if I decide to do that.  I'll keep experimenting and follow the advice about keeping notes.  I've gotten some really good advice on this forum, and I'll use those opinions in my practice and research.  A good excuse to shoot a lot. 

[Natureboy]

  To answer other questions about my gun:  it has a flat breech plug, not a patent breech, and when I notice my "full" mark on the ramrod moving out from the muzzle end, I use my scraper and dump out the sand-like black stuff, and the mark goes back to normal.  I was concerned that the crud at the bottom of the breech might be moving the load forward, so I use the scraper about every 10 shots.

[WadePatton]

I always left the vent pick in the hole when I loaded.It MUST be removed to prime the pan.

Bob Roller

Is this not the most efficient "picking" action: pick in, load, pick-out, prime, fire?

and it must be removed for any external ignition at all.  a safety feature i like.  also stops self-priming. 

[WadePatton]

 To answer other questions about my gun:  it has a flat breech plug, not a patent breech, and when I notice my "full" mark on the ramrod moving out from the muzzle end, I use my scraper and dump out the sand-like black stuff, and the mark goes back to normal.  I was concerned that the crud at the bottom of the breech might be moving the load forward, so I use the scraper about every 10 shots.

You must be loading too loose a PRB combo.  That's a lot of crud.  There is your problem.  I don't own a scraper and don't need one.

Try thicker patching, or the larger ball with same patching.  You shouldn't have to beat it down, but it needs to be a rather firm for the first several inches--using a starter, then careful short-strokes of the rammer.

Now in the process of finding the tightest combo you can load you may _have_ to hammer one home in order to shoot it (a good time to have a metal rod on hand).  That's one notch too snug.  I am convinced that crud accumulation is the main culprit in unintentional discharges of our weapons.  Tight combos eliminate it, and provide best consistency, less loading gymnastics.

Get the ball/patch size worked out and then you can play with lubes.  

Crud, that there is the issue, tighter loading can fix it.  HTH.

[Larry Pletcher]

At 3/32" for a vent, you have a huge vent hole.  With one that size, I would use a pipe cleaner after wiping.  If it solves the problem, you were probably pushing fouling into the vent when you wiped the barrel. This could at least help find the problem.

Using a vent pick on an empty barrel, doesn't ensure that you have gotten the fouling.  In one test session I was looking through a clean out hole opposite the vent.  I could see a chunk of fouling.  I pushed a pick into the vent and pushed the fouling into the barrel, BUT when the pick was removed the fouling was pulled back into the vent where it stayed when the pick was removed.  That experience taught me the value of a pipe cleaner for test sessions. I sometimes use a pipe cleaner on a woods walk if I suspect a problem.

Regards,
Pletch

[Natureboy]

  I do use pipe cleaners, the kind that have scrubbing bristles, before I pour in the powder.  After wiping, I push the pick in (a 1/16 brass rod), and then the pipe cleaner.  It usually comes out with some black dust on it, so I'm assuming that the vent is pretty clean before the powder goes in. 

[bgf]

Try not wiping and pick just before or right after priming.  Your vent  must be right on the breech face and fouling is building up (as somebody above suggested) from wiping.  Not wiping should test that.

The straight hole doesn't help either, but the large size is good in this case.  One thing you can try is turn the rifle on its side so the touch hole is pointing up (after closing the pan cover) and give the stock a tap.  I do this to bank the powder against the hole (thanks to Pletch's testing!), but with the size of your flash hole, it may also get some primer into the hole and closer to the charge.