Author Topic: Newbie with some questions  (Read 9417 times)

rhyno214

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Newbie with some questions
« on: August 25, 2014, 02:55:54 AM »
Hello all!

I have been scouting y'all's forum for a while now and thought it was time to join and ask some questions of my own. Before I ask the questions, though, let me warn you that I am a complete newbie to building rifles and have very very little gunsmithing experience. Right now, the only real building/design experience that I have is the past two years that I have been studying Engineering Design here at college. I have always loved traditional style rifles and wanted to build one ever since I watched a smith build one years and years ago.

So, on to the questions...

1. I am a poor college student with absolutely no equipment/tools (except for what we have in our college's woodshop). I am not trying to get a complete set right off the bat, but what would be the tools that are essential to the process. FYI, my end goal is to carve the stock from a blank and using a pre-bought lock, barrel, and other metal components.

2. This is probably going to sound really stupid, but I have been looking at barrels and am at a complete loss with all of the different options. I know most of it depends on the style you are trying to emulate, but is there a reason for choosing one type over the other? Also, I plan on building a pistol at some point and was curious about the different external diameters and how to decide on one.

3. I know this will vary greatly on the carving, inlaying, and how meticulous you are, but around how many hours does it usually take to build a first rifle with little "flourish"? I will spend as much time as needed, I just like to have a good idea of time before I start.

4. What are good ways to practice techniques? I have very little experience with woodworking and intend to practice a lot before I start this, but I am kind of at a loss with a lot of the concepts. For instance, when carving, is most of it done by eye? Or is there a template that is made beforehand to make sure it is symmetrical and the right dimensions?

I have looked up a lot of tutorials from many websites and have read through a lot of post and such from here, but I would love your input on these specific questions. I apologize if these are really beginner questions, but that is what I am :) .

Thank you so much once again!!

Ryan

Micah2

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Re: Newbie with some questions
« Reply #1 on: August 25, 2014, 03:25:27 AM »
You will need as few or as many tools as you will need!  Kinda kidding...  Choose a barrel, swamped barrels offer great balance, caliber to suit your need.  I find my walnut at a local backyard sawmill.  Pick a style and try and find a pattern if you can.  You will need a saw to cut the blank, a few good chisels and a mallet, a rasp is nice.  Try pawnshops for most of these tools.  Try and buy a nice 1/4" chisel.  Learn how to sharpen a chisel.  It might take more than one hundred hours, but don't keep track, and don't quit.  If you quit you will miss out on something very rewarding that you will have for a long time.  I like hand tools because it takes a lot of risk out, but takes much longer.  Good luck!  Search this site for most of the answers to your questions, and ask for the ones you can't find.  You are in the right place.

Offline Cory Joe Stewart

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Re: Newbie with some questions
« Reply #2 on: August 25, 2014, 03:25:45 AM »
I too started gunbuilding as a poor college student.  Now I'm a poor  college professor. First off right now your money can be better spent on books if you dont already have them. I also like some of the building dvds.  The amount of tools you will need will vary depending on what you want to do.  A good rasp is a must.  I use a hand drill but a drill press is preferred by some.  

You dont have to buy it all at once.  I started assembling tools and parts a year befor my first build to fit my budget.  Let me know if you need anything as you go.  

Coryjoe

andy49

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Re: Newbie with some questions
« Reply #3 on: August 25, 2014, 03:27:36 AM »
I would most differently start with a kit. This will give you a good idea of the skills you will need to acquire. Your finished product will give you an example to follow for the next step.
I have been building for a year now and I can't believe the different skill sets this hobby (art) requires, from woodworking, metal working, carving to engraving (this challenge is why it is so much fun). Patients has probably been the hardest part. This forum and it's experienced members has been really generous in helping to learn.
Andy

kaintuck

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Re: Newbie with some questions
« Reply #4 on: August 25, 2014, 04:17:34 AM »
Chisels, hacksaw,xacto razor blade, couple of metal files, couple of wood rasps, small wood plane, vise, bolted to the bench...the rest is helpful, but with most things......you can go crazy!

Build time from a blank??? Slow will get you a better rifle...so around 100 hrs.....

Get the book " recreating the american longrifle" ~ my favorite, got notes everywhere in it....I still look at it even after a dozen rifles......

Marc n tomtom

Offline smallpatch

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Re: Newbie with some questions
« Reply #5 on: August 25, 2014, 04:40:24 AM »
Right now, the only tools you need are reading materials. Learn the proper sequence and how to proceed, then start with a style, a full size drawing if possible.  Buy a barrel that is appropriate, the appropriate wood for that style, then the first tools you will need are a ruler, straightedge, and a pencil.

Go slow, and proceed from there.
Welcome to my addiction !!!
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Offline E.vonAschwege

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Re: Newbie with some questions
« Reply #6 on: August 25, 2014, 04:57:33 AM »
Hello Ryan,
    Welcome to the ALR forum - don't worry about asking beginner questions, they're the same questions many of us had when we started.  There is plenty of info in our archives as well, so please check those out as well.  The first tool I'd buy is a set of books.  I started with "Recreating the American Longrifle" by Buchelle, available at most supply places online.  I'd also buy at least one or two books on original longrifles so you have an idea for what styles look like ("Rifles of Colonial America" by Shumway is a good one, as is "Thoughts on the Kentucky Rifle in it's Golden Age" by Kindig).  A few basic books will save you a lot of time and be excellent resources for study.  After that, a set of flat chisels (1/4, 1/2, and 1"), assorted gouges, a flat spokeshave, block plane, rasp, and lots of assorted files.  For a first rifle, I would suggest buying a stock with the barrel and ramrod already inlet, or even a pre-shaped stock in the rough style of what you're looking to build.  

Barrels come in all sorts of calibers - a good all-around caliber that can serve for target shooting and hunting is 45 or 50.  "swamped" barrels have a better balance generally than straight barrels, but cost more.  They're also more authentic for earlier styles and most classic longrifles.  

Hours spent on a rifle vary greatly, I'm finishing up a slightly dressy southern mountain gun - no carving, but some interesting inletting, and it'll be about 70 hours.  Some of my guns have taken about 200 though, so it really depends on how intricate things are and how quick you are.  

Practice on some good chunks of dense maple if you want to do carving.  You can also practice inletting small parts into pieces of maple (can be bought at home depot).  Others will have better answers for some of your other questions.  Where are you at college?  It's nice that it has a wood shop.  
Best,
-Eric
Former Gunsmith, Colonial Williamsburg www.vonaschwegeflintlocks.com

rhyno214

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Re: Newbie with some questions
« Reply #7 on: August 25, 2014, 05:43:42 AM »
Wow! You guys are fast on replying! Thank you so much!

I have been looking at some books and was about to purchase The Gunsmith of Greenville County and The Art of Building the Pennsylvania Long Rifle. I will definitely look into Recreating the American Long Rifle, though! Thanks Marc! Are there any other ones to look at?

Eric: I actually think our library has that Kindig book! And I am currently at Murray State University in KY. The wood shop is really nice! We have all of the tools that I would ever need from rasps to bandsaws and it is free to use :D

Also, another question... Does anyone here shoot competition black powder pistol? I shot it for the first time the other weekend and fell in love with it. I am lucky enough to live next to a few multi-time national champions who said they would love to train me and I was wondering if any of y'all knew anything about the sport. Also, being a designer, I have been throwing around designs for a couple open division pistols and wondered if anyone has experience with more contemporary flintlocks and cap locks.

Ryan

Offline Pete G.

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Re: Newbie with some questions
« Reply #8 on: August 25, 2014, 05:40:38 PM »
I would advise to take advantage of the college workshop and note which tools you end up using the most. Those are the ones to buy. DO NOT buy cheap tools; You will only have to spend more money to replace them with what you should have bought to begin with.

Run some copies from the Kindig book and get a few maple boards to practice some layout and carving work. By the time you have saved enough to buy some parts, you will have already begun to build your skill sets.

Stuartg

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Re: Newbie with some questions
« Reply #9 on: August 25, 2014, 05:42:20 PM »
One other good source of free education on building a longrifle are youtube videos that are posted by our very own member, firelock (you'll see his posted on a Lehigh rifle he is starting). On youtube, you can find his profile duelist1954. If anything, it will at least let you know what you're getting into. Have fun!

Offline bob in the woods

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Re: Newbie with some questions
« Reply #10 on: August 25, 2014, 05:51:01 PM »
Paper, pencils, and erasers are invaluable.  Use them first…before putting tools to wood.

Offline PPatch

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Re: Newbie with some questions
« Reply #11 on: August 25, 2014, 08:18:16 PM »
Hello all!

I have been scouting y'all's forum for a while now and thought it was time to join and ask some questions of my own. Before I ask the questions, though, let me warn you that I am a complete newbie to building rifles and have very very little gunsmithing experience. Right now, the only real building/design experience that I have is the past two years that I have been studying Engineering Design here at college. I have always loved traditional style rifles and wanted to build one ever since I watched a smith build one years and years ago.

So, on to the questions...

1. I am a poor college student with absolutely no equipment/tools (except for what we have in our college's woodshop). I am not trying to get a complete set right off the bat, but what would be the tools that are essential to the process. FYI, my end goal is to carve the stock from a blank and using a pre-bought lock, barrel, and other metal components.

2. This is probably going to sound really stupid, but I have been looking at barrels and am at a complete loss with all of the different options. I know most of it depends on the style you are trying to emulate, but is there a reason for choosing one type over the other? Also, I plan on building a pistol at some point and was curious about the different external diameters and how to decide on one.

3. I know this will vary greatly on the carving, inlaying, and how meticulous you are, but around how many hours does it usually take to build a first rifle with little "flourish"? I will spend as much time as needed, I just like to have a good idea of time before I start.

4. What are good ways to practice techniques? I have very little experience with woodworking and intend to practice a lot before I start this, but I am kind of at a loss with a lot of the concepts. For instance, when carving, is most of it done by eye? Or is there a template that is made beforehand to make sure it is symmetrical and the right dimensions?

I have looked up a lot of tutorials from many websites and have read through a lot of post and such from here, but I would love your input on these specific questions. I apologize if these are really beginner questions, but that is what I am :) .

Thank you so much once again!!

Ryan

Welcome to the forum Ryan. It is good to see a young man become involved in our addiction. I am fairly new to gunbuilding myself, been in it for a little over two years now. I will answer your questions in the order you posted to my best ability.

1. Being in collage and being poor only means you stretch your purchasing bouts according to your budget, you'll end up with the tools you need but it will take a little longer. No big deal in the end but as Pete G. said don't buy cheap, buy the best you can. Beginning from a blank is ambitious but not unheard of. Go that route if you feel you must, consider a blank with the barrel inlet and ramrod hole drilled. You will have to choose a style to emulate and a caliber. Someone suggested 45 and 50 for calibers, good advice. Buy as many books as you can afford and do your research before cutting into wood. You might consider a "try stock" before cutting into your actual project, or at least practicing on some inexpensive wood shaping the butt and lock panel areas. Popular is good for that and relatively inexpensive. Of course it is much softer than walnut or maple, but playing with it will give you confidence to proceed to the real deal. Only a suggestion and not mandatory by any means.

2. The only "stupid" question is the one you didn't ask. I can't advise you on pistols, I've never tackled one, someday though... Barrels come in two basic styles, straight sided and swamped. I suggest you going with a swamped and that is the reason I recommended going with a blank with the barrel inlet. Swamped barrels come in different profiles, lengths, and weights. There is A, B, C and D, A being the smaller on up to D being the heaver and larger across the flats. A weight swamped barrels are slim and lightweight, they can be had up to 45 caliber. I just completed a Tennessee style rifle with an A weight 45 caliber 42 inch Green Mountain swamped barrel and am about to finish another in an A weight 36 caliber which I a Colerain brand. Both are fairly light and slim. Your 50 caliber with begin in the B weight which is larger across the flats and heavier but still an acceptable weight for carrying in the woods all day. My 50 caliber has a B weight 44 inch swamped, Rice brand barrel. Besides the standard profile and length barrels one can obtain custom barrels from several makers. You will have to study and understand the different profiles and weights to choose one for your project.

3. and 4. There is pretty much no telling how many hours it will take you to build your first rifle, there are just too many variables. So far folks have thrown out 100 and 200 hours, I would lean toward the longer figure. It took me 13 months of fairly dedicated work to complete my first. But then I'm pretty meticulous, cautious and frankly indecisive (it being my first attempt) and  and needed to teach myself quite a bit before moving along. Kinda one step forward and a half back as I encountered one thing or another. Several have suggested practising you carving before digging in for real - GREAT suggestion. I used blocks of popular at first then moved on to some southern maple before carving my 50 caliber (my first, from a Jim Chambers pre-carve stock). Note this: don't just practice on flat surfaces, a longrifle is curved all over, and that makes a difference in carving technique. As your practise note how the wood grain effects your cuts, it is a large factor. There are no templates I know of but you can make them as and if you feel you need to, however, doing so is only marginally helpful and your time is better spent drawing on the stock. What you do is take a No. 2 pencil and draw the intended design directly on the stock (don't dig in with the pencil) and erase and redraw until you have something you can live with.

Basic carving tools: Buy full sized tools, for now you won't need palm style. Also, a mallet, my most useful is a 1 1/2lb weight, You might be able to make several in that woodshop you mentioned. Note too that tools are a personal thing and what one fellow finds indispensable the other never considers. Beyond some basic tools you add to your repertoire as you find a need and according to you developing technique(s). Learn to use the chisels with the mallet which is a more controlled method than simple pushing the tool into the wood which WILL cause trouble sooner rather than later.

1/8th parting chisel (used to inlet RR pipes, barrel keys and some other stuff)
1/4 inch chisel - you'll find this one handy for all sorts of jobs, a must have.
3/8s and 1/2 inch parting chisels - useful sometimes.
3mm No. 3 sweep - I use this one quite a bit for carving and inlays. consider larger versions of the No 3 too, up to 3/8ths.
60 degree V tool, and 1mm U shaped chisels - useful for cutting in around carving and relieving around the inside of inlays, carving volutes.
Various scrapers - make your own. Smaller ones with curves are very useful, larger ones for stock scraping are good.
Knife, exacto or otherwise but it has to have a thin very sharp point and blade.
Consider making some carving tools out of old hacksaw blades. Those blades are useful too with doing wire inlay. You anneal them, shape, sharpen then temper them.

You must learn to sharpen and strop your tools to beyond razors edge. A dull tool will cause grief pretty darn quick. Once you have a keen edge on them it will last quite a while with stropping as needed before you must resort to the stones again.

Hope that helps, most of all relax, do your research and have all the fun you can.  ;D

dave


« Last Edit: August 25, 2014, 08:23:05 PM by PPatch »
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Offline chrisdefrance

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Re: Newbie with some questions
« Reply #12 on: August 25, 2014, 08:25:40 PM »
Ryan - I have two suggestions. Look at the schools library, some of these books maybe at the school or the community local library. Second, look online for second hand books. The "Rifles of Colonial America" by George Shumway is in two Volumes, you may want to get these new. Well worthwhile. I found " Recreating The American..." at amazon.com. Look at the books and then decide which need to be new or not.

I am new to this forum as well. This is the best, the most complete and the most knowledgeable source for Longrifles that there is today. Most of these gentlemen have studied American Longrifles and their construction for a good while. They will help you anyway that they can.
It is good to see young interests in these rifles. I do wish that I had started earlier.

Chris
« Last Edit: August 26, 2014, 11:53:05 PM by chrisdefrance »
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tbarnes66

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Re: Newbie with some questions
« Reply #13 on: August 25, 2014, 08:38:06 PM »
Ryan,

I am currently working on my 3rd rifle and like you, started from ground zero.

I am sending you an email with my address. I was born in Murray and graduated from MSU. I currently live just out of town and would be happy for you to come over and I can show you my shops, tools, guns and even let you shoot some at the range I built behind my house.

Tim

Offline Acer Saccharum

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Re: Newbie with some questions
« Reply #14 on: August 25, 2014, 09:28:18 PM »
rhyno214
In reply to the questions...

1. Excellent plan to start with. Consider full scale drawings if you have not built a longrifle before. Pistols can be harder to build than rifles, because a pistol has all the features of a rifle, yet compacted into a much smaller frame. Track of the Wolf and Eric vonAschwege are two resources for drawings. http://www.neahkahnieflintlocks.com/plans.html

2. Caliber? What do you want to do with the gun? It's a tool. Just like a drill, you gotta have some idea what kind of hole you're going to want to make, and in what material. Smoothbores are very versatile, as they can shoot round ball or birdshot.

3. I take about 200 hours, depending on complexity. Been doing gun building for 40 something yrs. Still very slow. Will never be fast, so I enjoy the ride.

4. What are good ways to practice techniques? Draw, draw, draw. Not only will you train your hand and eye, you will start to learn what you like and don't. This is crucial to having the outcome be as close to your vision as possible. Yes, and practice carving. If I have a new technique I want to employ, I 'learn it ahead' by practice on a block of wood. Same goes for wire inlay, checkering, practice on scrap.

The intent of this site is to help builders get started, or to further their skill sets.

A ramble, and this is not just for you, but for everyone on the site:
Best approach is to show us all that you are taking advice and putting it to use. If you just ask questions all the time, yet never do anything with the info, that is discouraging to the responders. Post pictures of your work. Get feedback. This is a two-way street, and we all learn. Students learn from each other and from the teacher, and teacher learns from the students. For the boat to move, we all have to row.

Another point is that the main focus of this site is the long rifle, its history, the makers, materials and culture of the 18th Century into the early 19th. But you will see matchlocks, wheel locks from the 16th and 17th; sometimes Hawkens and other late percussion arms. You would do well to steep yourself in the different styles of arms of the various regions of the Colonies. Out of your studies you will find yourself leaning toward one style of rifle/fowler or another.

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Ramrod scrapers are all sold out.

Offline gunmaker

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Re: Newbie with some questions
« Reply #15 on: August 26, 2014, 12:06:15 AM »
What they all said.....Right now your eyes are the tool you are most likely to be using.  Read, and search out all the info you can get your hands on.  Get out to museums & look for rifles & stuff.   Oh, and read too...Tom

Offline Virginiarifleman

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Re: Newbie with some questions
« Reply #16 on: August 26, 2014, 02:07:01 AM »
You have come to the right place. you will find a lot of knowledge and helpful people willing to share that knowledge. a little advise just before you start your 1st build........... it made me a fortune. get a jar and lable it Curse words. by the time your first rifle is finished. youll have the money to start your second build.

rhyno214

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Re: Newbie with some questions
« Reply #17 on: August 26, 2014, 03:37:56 AM »
Sorry I am so late in replying, long day of classes >.<

Tbarnes, just shot you an email! Such a small world we live in :)

Acer, I completely agree with your ramble. I have helped other people on other forums and it was always a let down when those that I helped never showed up again.

Virginia, haha such a great idea  :D

PPatch, wow! that's a lot of info! thank you! I actually found out that we had to give our hand tools to the art department, so I am going to have to buy my own now. I will definitely take your list with me when I go shopping ;)

To everyone else, Thank you so much for your replies! I am always amazed at the shooting community and how eager they are to help a new guy out.

Here is a new question, does anyone here have CAD experience? And if so, have you ever attempted to model a gun and all of its components? I am very meticulous and like to have plans, so I will probably be making a full mock up of the rifle as I build it if anyone would be interested...

rhyno214

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Re: Newbie with some questions
« Reply #18 on: August 26, 2014, 03:51:13 AM »
And sorry, one more question...

How does one determine the angle of the stock? I know that it is dependent on the style of the rifle, but are there standards for all guns? For instance, I have decided that I want to build a Tennessee Mountain Rifle or a Southern Mountain Rifle. Are the angles determined by the builder and what is comfortable, or do those rifles have set angles that they are made at?

Thank you!!

Offline 44-henry

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Re: Newbie with some questions
« Reply #19 on: August 26, 2014, 03:53:23 AM »
You'll find lots of good info here. A couple thoughts that I have not seen anyone respond to yet.

1. Be careful doing any gun related work in your departments laboratory. Some programs are more tolerant than others, but ask first before using to avoid any problems. If your program is well equipped, it would be a good opportunity to learn processes such as green sand or investment casting on furniture, most programs would probably have little problem with this.

2. CAD is a great tool, but it can have its limits in this type of work. I think you would find that faithfully recreating the geometry of even a very basic rifle would be extremely time consuming and would have dubious value. Three-dimensional scanning is an option that might have merit though if combined with 3D printing technology.

Above all take advantage of the wealth of information that is now readily available to you online, and the many excellent books mentioned above. As a student you will find school and life in general will severely limit your time and you may find that this is a hobby that you need to wait and pursue at a different point. As a college professor, I had several years of down time when all I could do was dream about finding the time and financial resources to pursue this hobby, but forums like this kept my interest alive and I am finally starting to find the time to pursue some of my interests.

Offline gunmaker

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Re: Newbie with some questions
« Reply #20 on: August 26, 2014, 05:19:40 AM »
CAD shortcut.  Get Track Wolfs new catalog, all the gun parts are shown full size (except barrels/stocks)  Make copies and cut & paste 'em together for a pattern.  It's your gun, make it fit you.  If you have a gun/rifle that fits you good & you see straight down bbl.---use that as a plan.  All stocks in Track catalog show drop and max. length pull.  So you know what diff. styles of guns more or less are.  Fit to you is more important,  No fit -- no hit target....Welcome to the journey...Tom

Offline Acer Saccharum

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Re: Newbie with some questions
« Reply #21 on: August 26, 2014, 05:44:56 AM »
I have CAD and CAM, a CNC mill and lathe. And I don't use them for gun work. Too stiff. Too limiting. Work put out by machine looks machine made. It's cold and dry, it has no soul. You need to have those CAD skills for doing work in this century, but the guns of the 17th and 18th cent were all done by hand and by eye.

Once you have made a good gun, you could get a 3D scan, and then machine more of them out, right down to the inlets and carving.

For the meantime, paper, pencil, eraser is your homework assignment.
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Ramrod scrapers are all sold out.

rhyno214

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Re: Newbie with some questions
« Reply #22 on: August 26, 2014, 07:04:36 PM »
I can definitely see CAD being limiting. I will probably just use it to mock up the mechanical parts when I get some to play around with. As for the assignment, I will get to work on that immediately ;) I just ordered a couple books and I should have some carving tools when I go home this weekend as well. Thank you all so much for your help, I will definitely keep you updated when I start this project!

Offline Acer Saccharum

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Re: Newbie with some questions
« Reply #23 on: August 26, 2014, 07:14:46 PM »
I do use CAD for conceptualizing; it's very handy for making complex mechanisms, then moving them around until you get just the right fit and function.  Don't get me wrong, it's a GREAT tool.

I agree on your placing components, and moving them around until you get lock bolts to line up, touch hole and lock placed, etc. But this is very limited. If you're very comfortable with CAD, it can certainly be a useful tool.

It would be handy to have CAD line drawings of every lock, set triggers and barrel configuration......hint...hint.....
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Ramrod scrapers are all sold out.

rhyno214

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Re: Newbie with some questions
« Reply #24 on: August 26, 2014, 09:38:15 PM »
I am pretty comfortable on a bunch of CAD softwares, so I will probably look into doing some of that (nothing beats real world practice!)...

If anyone would like some CAD models rendered, whether it be 2D or 3D, let me know and I would love to help out. I have none to model at the moment, but hopefully will soon. Likewise, if anyone has any designs they would like mocked up or 2D drawings to 3D renderings, I love doing that sort of work and would love to help!