Buck's County Fowler Any ideas on the maker?

[jdm]

I was lucky enough to  find a couple of long guns at a show last month. One is this nice eastern Pa. fowler.( Rob will post some pictures later when he has time.) I've been trying to come up with a maker but am not having much luck. The carving around the tang looks familiar so does the lock bolt plate. It has a Ketland lock that may be original to the gun. Octagon to round 30 inch barrel .  May have been cut down.   Front and rear site, open end nose cap Maple stock and early curled trigger.
Take a look and am looking foreword  to comments.   Thanks  JIM

[Shreckmeister]

[Shreckmeister]

[Levy]

IMO the sideplate looks like a re-purposed and cut-down trade gun sideplate.  I own one of the original sideplates found in a local river.

James Levy

[realtorone]

I have a smooth bore fowler/buck and ball gun with the same three feather or leaf, what ever marking as on your lock plate. Mine is marked on the butt plate tang and on the  tang of the breech plug. I don't think my lock plate has any ID markings, but would have to get it out to be sure.
George

[Lucky R A]

It would be nice see the Top of the butt plate and the trigger guard.  The lock is a common trade lock of the era and is often referenced as a "tulip lock" due to the decoration.   The gun shows characteristics of several schools, Berks, Bucks and Lehigh.  It could easily come from the area where these three areas come together.

Ron

[mr. no gold]

I have heard the 'leaf like' figure also referred to as a 'bellflower' and a 'bee.' Don't have any idea whether this was the mark of a particular maker, identifed a district, or what the origin could be. Must be English however, as the locks appear to be from England. Early 1800s?
You found a nice fowler and I think that Ron has pointed the way toward the area in which it was made. Thank you for showing it, here.  Always a pleasure to see new pieces.
Dick

[jdm]

Thanks for the response.  Rob thank you for posting the pictures. I will email  Mr. Shreckmeister  a picture of trigger guard and top of butt  plate. I hope he is still in the mood to help out a fellow collector.  The same design is on the top of butt plate as the lock. I have seen this on several long guns.
I know it's hard to come up with a maker  on these Fowler's when there is not as much to go on. It's a long  shot . You never know  with all the eyes here . Someone may recognize  a small detail.

 Dick, I was thinking  a 1780's or 90's date. Mainly because of the early style trigger. That could also be because in my mind I want it to be earlier.   
The open end nose cap is a Lehigh feature . Is it also on Berks and Bucks county guns?     JIM

[mr. no gold]

According to Jack Brooks, the open end nose cap is found in Angstat guns and some others made in that area. Your lock could be from the decade prior to 1800, but the type changed only slowly for the most part for a number of decades, so it is hard to say. To me, the carving at the tang could fit into an earlier period. It has an English aspect to it with the shell motif. How thick is the buttstock, by the way?
Dick

[Buck]

Jim,
Nice find, water the grass!
Buck

[jdm]

Dick, Butt plate inch and five eighths.


Buck, %#@&%  you

[DaveM]

Nice find and thanks for sharing photos.  It is always a pleasure to see unpublished / discovered earlier pieces.  My guess is Bucks based on forestock incised lines and curled trigger for the period ( agree with Mr. no Gold around 1800).  Of course could be anywhere  between Philadelphia and Leihigh / berks.  I would asume this type of gun could have been stocked somewhere west of Philadelphia using british parts imported thru phila.  We assume Bucks as the only school in that region but who is to say maybe someone in montgomery or chester county as yet unknown. i assume guns from closer to phila may have more british characteristics due to imports.

[Shreckmeister]

[jdm]

Rob, Thank you for posting these.

Buck ,Wish you would of come down  with the old man to the July  K.C. show. I picked up this fowler and a Drepperd rifle there. See you in Feb. for sure.   JIM

[tallbear]

Jim

Thanks for posting. If you have Hornbergers Berks county book,look at page 52 gun #16.Very similar architecture .


Mitch

[mr. no gold]

The buttstock seems reasonably thick for a gun built sometime around 1800, give or take a few. There is an area in Bucks County that produced rifles without the pronounced comb, and which tend toward the Roman Nose pattern. This is something that JTR knows about and I hope that he enters this discussion. I don't have a Bucks County rifle so it is hard for me to comment with any authority. Your piece does have the high forearm molding, but then so do Lehigh guns, and N. Beyer used it on a limited basis for his rifles. Keep digging, you will find something on it soon.
Dick

[Eric Kettenburg]

I'm late to the party.  Look at the so-called "Jacob Dubbs" pieces, the full smooth rifle and the buttstock.  There are probably about 6 or 7 more of them that I've seen over the last 10 years, some plainer like this one and some decorated, but all have the same wonky architecture and all have imported furniture and locks.  There was one up at a small auction up here a few years ago too, and it's rare to see something like this up here in the hinterlands.  They're all the same guy, I'm convinced of it, and I think he was pretty prolific.  Unfortunatly not one of them is signed.  They're all about the same period, 1780s through maybe 1810, and I think the dude was working in the 'four corners' where modern Bucks/Montgomery/Lehigh/Berks all come together.  At least one other, and actually I think two, have identical tang carving.  It's defintiely the same guy.  Wish I knew who he was.  Oh and they're all smoothbores - have not personally seen a rifled bore yet although who knows maybe they were once.  But to my recollection they're all oct/rd.

[Buck]

Jim,
Look forward to seeing you there. Nice find, to elaborate on Dicks comment regarding the molding at the fore stock, Mauger also used that detail. Probably not Mauger but funny Eric mentioned Montgomery Township. Great Gun. Have you showed the pictures to Louie?
Buck

[Eric Kettenburg]

I meant Montgomery County, the triangular spear point that pokes up at the very top into Bucks/Northampton(Lehigh)/Berks. 

[realtorone]

I got my camera out and have some pictures .My breechplug tang is scooped out like it is a sight although the barrel has a small stand up rear sight. The three leaf's,or what ever they are ,are just ahead of the plug on top of the barrel.My barrel is round all the way,has been trimmed back just almost to the front sight,which is on a tear drop plate.The barrel is proffed English I think from memory.My buttplate tang is shorter than the previous one and my three leaf's are a little different but my trigger guard has a almost identical design on the trigger bow.    MORE QUESTIONS than answers.

George

[realtorone]

Almost forgot I have a percussion pistol with that same three leaf design on the breech plug tang.The breech plug is border engraved and the three leaf design is just in front of the tang screw head.

[jdm]

Thank's  for the input guys. Very interesting.

Mitch, I have the Berks County book but it's on loan right now . I'll take a look when it shows up again. Thank you.

Buck, Louie was at the show but didn't see this gun. He had made a big trade and only had eyes for one. I did send him some pictures though.

 George, I've seen the leaf pattern on several imported locks and parts. I am not sure if they signify anything other than decoration.

 Dick, I'm surprised you don't have a Bucks County gun! I had heard you have one of every thing. When I first saw this I thought  Shuler tell I picked it up.   Jim

[jdm]

Eric, Thank you for your comments and information.
I had a chance to buy a " Jacob Dubbs "piece years ago but passed . I wish now I would have done it. There is at least one gun signed Jacob Dubbs on the patch box lid. I got the impression your thinking guns are attributed to him that shouldn't be?

I appreciate your knowledge and research .It's nice to know there are other similar pieces , possibly by the same maker out there. This is a very pleasing gun. I can picture someone walking  through the fall woods hunting birds and rabbits with it. Hopefully a signed gun will turn up one day and reveal this unknown maker.    JIM

[Eric Kettenburg]

I used the term 'so-called' because the rifle and the clone broken buttstock that have been attributed to him for many years are bascially attributed solely because of a "JD" on a thumbpiece, which I think is just silly.  But as I mentioned, there are quite a few similar pieces as well as yours, and while there are some slight differences among them they all seem to have been made by the same guy, whoever he may have been.  I don't know of any with a legitimate signature or marking that could be used to positively assign them to a specific maker.

I've never seen nor heard of a piece signed "Jacob Dubbs" although there are (I believe) two signed J. Daub, and some may have made an assumption based upon this.  Not sure - maybe someone ought to ask Eric Armstrong?  I did not spend nearly as much time on Bucks as Northampton, and part of the problem with pre-1800 Bucks co. is that very few of the records survived a fire in the 19th century.  There are some scattered 1750-1800 records available, but only for certain townships.  Definitely not comparable to the extant records for many of the other counties of interest.

[mr. no gold]

Jim, I won't have one of everything, until you sell me your collection. Then, I expect I'll be a lot closer. The additional photos help a lot and I think Bucks it is, (right Buck?). It is a darn fine piece of work and doesn't surprise me that it turned up in your neck of the woods. I can't get over how many good things turn up on both sides of the River there in the midwest. And, just a few miles from where I grew up. Thank you for including us on the fun of finding it.
Dick