sitting fox has this listed on their site.

[navygunner]

I'm thinking about jumping on this since it fits my idea of a short barreled  turkey weapon and it's reminds me of meself  little on the ugly side. 

http://sittingfoxmuzzleloaders.com/f-108/ all thoughts appreciated.

NG

[George Sutton]

It states it imitates "the reuse of military parts".  With the exception of the lock (and that's questionable), there are no military parts on it. It looks to be well made and reasonable in price, however you should look at Jackie Brown's site, you may get a better deal.

Fowlers are a lot different than rifles. I guess I would need to know what else you want to use it for. If turkeys are your only interest it should be fine. In my opinion, I would not recommend a fowler as a first black powder purchase. If you have past experience shooting these guns then thats different.

Centershot

[SCLoyalist]

all thoughts appreciated.

NG

The ballistics should do fine for turkeys.   The club butt looks clumsy (to use Sitting Fox's word), and you might want to see if they have return policy if you shoulder the gun and realize a club butt just doesn't fit you.    And, if you're into rendezvousing or re-enacting consider if the pre-Rev club butt fits your 'persona'.     I agree with Centershot that it looks well made and reasonably priced, and I can't recall ever hearing anything bad about the quality of Sitting Fox's products.

[navygunner]

thanks Centershot and SCLoyalist..I have no flint experience but have shot caplocks and cannon for a number of years. I also have reservations about that stock. My primary use will be for shot.

NG

[George Sutton]

Look at Jackie Brown's listings

Centershot

[Virginiarifleman]

Navy, first thing you need to do is think what your plans are down the road. are you going to get into reenacting ? week end competition shooting,or just plain hunting. plan your purchase or build on what your intentions are going to be. look at resale value and ease of sale if your not satisfied with the gun.

[navygunner]

Virginia rifleman, My reenacting is coming to an end. I belong to the 1st Michigan Battery D CW unit and the U S Naval Landing Party (CW Navy). My primary deer rifle is a 54 underhammer. Thought a flint would be nice for occasion small game and turkey. Thanks for the suggestions.

NG

[Hessian]

Another vote for Jackie Brown.

[navygunner]

Hessian,
 I can't find a website for Mr. Brown

[SCLoyalist]

I don't think Jackie B has a website anymore, but he's a forum member here and  if you go to the classified forum of this site, he has one of his southern smoothrifles posted for sale about three offerings down, and you can click on his name to send him a PM.

[Hungry Horse]

 IMO this is yet another example of somebody looking into their parts bin, and saying, "I could build a gun out of that stuff" and then trying to bend history to justify the finished monstrosity.

                  Hungry Horse

[gunmaker]

You might like one of these....Tom

click to see few more.

[Standing Bear]

" it's reminds me of meself   little on the ugly side.  "

NG I hope u are better lookin than that .... Well butt ugly club butt. Looks like it should work tho.
TC

[jamesthomas]

IMO this is yet another example of somebody looking into their parts bin, and saying, "I could build a gun out of that stuff" and then trying to bend history to justify the finished monstrosity.

                  Hungry Horse

 Which is what a club butt fowler is (a monstrosity that is). IMHO.

[Kermit]

...and overpriced for what it is. Jackie has this one offered on this site right now.

http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=32085.0

And a PM sent.

[Hungry Horse]

 I believe that the massive club butt on these fowlers, and muskets, served a very real purpose. The majority of these guns had barrels in the four foot plus range, and five feet of barrel was not unheard of. These barrels were often more heavily made than modern barrels, because they were wrought iron not steel. It seem logical that the heavy buttstock would make balancing the gun much easier. Correspondingly, having a club butt, and a stumpy little light barrel, like the gun shown, would be ridiculously unbalanced.

                    Hungry Horse
 

[Keb]

It states it imitates "the reuse of military parts".  With the exception of the lock (and that's questionable), there are no military parts on it. It looks to be well made and reasonable in price, however you should look at Jackie Brown's site, you may get a better deal.

It doesn't state that at all. It states "This barrel imitates the reuse of military parts that may have been restocked in the northeast seacoast area." It goes on to say it has an English Trade lock but nothing about the sheet brass parts being reused military parts.

[Joe S]

I believe that the massive club butt on these fowlers, and muskets, served a very real purpose….

I agree with Hungry Horse – the heavy butt balances a long barrel very nicely.  With a large caliber barrel and heavy loads of shot, the extra weight in the butt substantially reduces felt recoil too.  I’ve built 10 gauges in both New England and Hudson Valley styles, and for good handling and pleasant shooting experience, I’d take the Hudson Valley (“club butt”) style hands down.

Naveygunner – If you’re interested in authenticity, this ain’t it. 

People seem to confuse two very different types of guns – the Hudson Valley Fowler and the New England club butt, and lump them into one category. Regarding this particular gun, it is representative of neither type.  The deep cleft at the front of the comb does not appear on any American guns, at least to my knowledge.  You see that type of thing on some very early French guns, and very late guns built for the African trade.  The flat panels on the side of the comb are characteristic of some Hudson Valley guns, but also to the best of my knowledge, do not appear on New England club butts.  The barrel is also way too short.  This gun is nothing more than the figment of somebody’s imagination.

If you take this gun turkey hunting, I suggest that you be exceedingly careful not to let a gobbler get a good look at it.  I can’t imagine that any self-respecting turkey would let himself get shot with that thing.

[navygunner]

LMAO!!!! Thanks to all that have responded This one has fallen from grace as have the long barreled club butts.

NG

[nosrettap1958]

I believe that the massive club butt on these fowlers, and muskets, served a very real purpose….

I agree with Hungry Horse – the heavy butt balances a long barrel very nicely.  With a large caliber barrel and heavy loads of shot, the extra weight in the butt substantially reduces felt recoil too.  I’ve built 10 gauges in both New England and Hudson Valley styles, and for good handling and pleasant shooting experience, I’d take the Hudson Valley (“club butt”) style hands down.

Naveygunner – If you’re interested in authenticity, this ain’t it. 

People seem to confuse two very different types of guns – the Hudson Valley Fowler and the New England club butt, and lump them into one category. Regarding this particular gun, it is representative of neither type.  The deep cleft at the front of the comb does not appear on any American guns, at least to my knowledge.  You see that type of thing on some very early French guns, and very late guns built for the African trade.  The flat panels on the side of the comb are characteristic of some Hudson Valley guns, but also to the best of my knowledge, do not appear on New England club butts.  The barrel is also way too short.  This gun is nothing more than the figment of somebody’s imagination.

If you take this gun turkey hunting, I suggest that you be exceedingly careful not to let a gobbler get a good look at it.  I can’t imagine that any self-respecting turkey would let himself get shot with that thing.

Joe great post!!!   Could you mention any good books or web-sites to review these historical weapons??

[Joe S]

Flintlock Fowlers: The First Guns Made in America by Tom Grinslade is the best book available.  Ken Gahagan and Jack Haugh have made some very nice Hudson Valley guns that were posted on Contemporary Makers:

http://contemporarymakers.blogspot.com/2012/05/ken-gahagan.html
http://contemporarymakers.blogspot.com/2009/10/hudson-valley-fowler-ca-1730-by-ken.html
http://contemporarymakers.blogspot.com/2010/02/early-hudson-valley-fowler-by-ken.html
http://contemporarymakers.blogspot.com/2009/02/jack-haugh-hudson-valley-fowler.html

Also, if you Google Hudson Valley fowler and club butt fowler, you’ll find some antiques. On this site, there are several people who are knowledgeable about these guns and very helpful.

If you want to build an early gun, you’ll need a lock.  The Rifle Shoppe has both round faced and flat faced locks.  I have built both.  The round faced lock was OK, but the flat faced lock was so bad that the only parts from the original casting that I kept were the frizzen and the frizzen spring.  The frizzen wouldn’t harden, so I had to face that with a piece of 1095.  Jack Brooks has a very nice looking early round faced lock.  I’d try him first.

http://www.jsbrookslongrifles.com/riflessundriesforsale.htm.  

Jack also has a very nice pierced sideplate.  

The early lock are big – typically around 7” long. About 1750 and later guns occasionally use locks that we can buy complete, but they don’t look good to me.  These are massive guns, and 5 ½” locks just don’t fit them well.

Trigger guards and sideplates can be obtained from Reaves Goehring or the Rifle Shoppe.  Reaves is of course the best choice.  Or you can of course make your own.  Some of the early Hudson valley guns use imported cast buttplates, but a lot of them use homemade sheet brass.  I find it much easier to make a sheet brass buttplate than it is to inlet a cast buttplate.   If you need some advice, I can walk you through the process. Here’s a Ducth  trigger guard I’m whittling out of a French Tulle fusil de chasse:



I find these guns are fun to build because they are so different from what we usually do, from the architecture to the carving.  

Are they ugly?  Probably, but fat girls need love too.

[nosrettap1958]

Yes they do need some lovin.  


The have a unique style to them and they probably played a bigger role in our early history than people realize. I'm sure that more than one Hudson Valley or New England club butt fowler was found on a French and Indian and Revolutionary War battlefield especially behind those breastworks at Breed's Hill.

But, looking at those links that you have so graciously provided, Thank you kindly for those, what are the differences, generally speaking,  between a European built 'Club Butt' and a Hudson Valley or New England built fowler?

or should I buy the books???  

[Hungry Horse]

 Revolutionary war restocks in the Hudson Bay style are not unknown. I have seen a nicely preserved musket, that is fitted with salvaged first model Brown Bess parts, but has the distinctive shape of a Hudson Bay fowler.
 I recently purchased a very nice piece of maple stock wood from a forum member, that when it arrived, changed all my previous plans. The stock, had a lot of extra wood in the buttstock area, that just screamed Hudsons Bay/club butt/Buccaneer style. And, since I had a gigantic 1763 Charleville lock in my parts box, along with a round 42" 12 gauge barrel, it just seemed like it was meant to be. The vision I have, is of a Hudson Bay fowler that has been modified for military service.
 I intend to back date the lock to represent a French lock made some time in the 1740's or 1750's, if I can find a goose neck hammer in the right throw. I may also crop the fore stock, to facilitate mounting a bayonet, that is, if my efforts at making a plug bayonet fail.

                  Hungry Horse

[Joe S]

Crawdad  - Best thing to do is buy the book.  I could explain it to you, but even then you would still have to buy the book.

Hungry Horse – Sounds like a cool project.  I hope you’ll post some pictures.  I believe Grinslade shows a couple of cut back HV or NE club butt guns with bayonet lugs.

[Kermit]

Ditto, HH. I hope we get to see some photos. Your description is clear and intriguing.