Looking for a replacement barrel for a Chambers long rifle

[Doc Coles]

I have a very nice long rifle with a swamped 44" 50 cal barrel that I am told was built from a Jim Chambers kit.  I can find no markings on the barrel or lock.  The muzzle has been reamed or machined to allow fast loading, which I understand was done on at least some original guns.  Despite a lot of experimentation by me and several knowledgeable friends, I cannot get the gun to shoot even close to accurately.  The leading theory put forward to explain this is that the "cone" cut into the rifling at the muzzle is too large (there is no rifling at the muzzle and for at least half an inch down the bore).  I don't want to cut the barrel down to get to full rifling since I like the length of the gun, so the only other option is to replace it.

The question is, where can I get a barrel made to exactly match the outside dimensions of the one I have?  I looked on the Chambers site and they don't seem to currently list this exact configuration.

Thank you for any information. 

[bob in the woods]

??    The Chambers Early Lancaster rifle  has a swamped 44 inch barrel and is actually recommended in .50 cal for accuracy/target work. Also available in .54 , for the hunting of all North American large game.
I'd give them a call.

[KLMoors]

Here are some links to barrel specs.

Rice Barrel Company:

http://ricebarrels.com/chart.html


Coelrain as listed on Pecatonica River Long Rifle site:

http://www.longrifles-pr.com/gmswampedoctbarrels.shtml

Does it match any of those?

[Topknot]

I would try a tight fitting ball/patch combination that's tight once it enters the rifling. Then do five shot group starting with 50 grains of powder . Check group size then move up 5 or 10 grains and shoot 5 more times and so on. You will find that sweet combination some where along the line. The tighter patch/ball combo in my opinion is very important. Not so tight that you have to use a mallet to get it to engage the rifling, but pretty darn tight. Just my experience. What type of lube are you using?

                                               topknot

[Doc Coles]

Topknot,
It's all been tried, no joy.  It's time to move on.  The cost of a new barrel is pretty minimal and it would get rid of the cone. 

The gun looks like an early Lancaster but uses a sliding wood patchbox lid instead of a brass patchbox and some of the trim details are different than those shown on the chambers page.  I will measure the barrel and compare it to the Lancaster barrel specs.  Part of the issue is that I am not sure that it is actually a chambers gun since I got it second hand.

[Ky-Flinter]

Hi Doc,

Welcome to ALR.  I'm just curious about how the gun shoots.  Are the shots all over the paper, i.e., it won't shoot a group?  Or does it group ok, but far from where the sights are pointed?

Have you had the barrel out of the stock?  If it has any maker's marks they will likely be on one of the bottom flats.

Something to consider when measuring your barrel.  It is likely that is was draw-filed before being installed in the stock.  (This can remove maker's marks.)  So your measurements may be slightly under the barrel maker's published dimensions.

Also, I don't know if you are aware, so I thought I would mention, a "replacement" barrel will be a bare barrel.  It will not have sights or underlugs fitted, and may not have a breech plug fitted, depending on the maker.  If you are equipped to fit the barrel to the stock, great!  But if not, the cost to have it done will likely be more than the cost of the new barrel.

Hope this helps.

-Ron

[frogwalking]

Doc.

If you buy a replacement barrel, it most likely will not have dovetails cut for sights nor will sights be included.  No dovetails will be cut for tenons, nor will they be installed or drilled.  The hole will not be drilled in the tang, and if the original rifle has had the tang shaped, the new barrel will have to be likewise.  Chamber's rifles are kits.  It is possible that if you call Jim Chambers, he may consent to fitting a new barrel to your rifle, as that is well within his capabilities, but it is outside his normal services.  It is harder to fit a new barrel to an old gun than to a new one, so I doubt such work will be cheap.  Of course, the existing barrel is swamped, so shortening it presents a number of problems too.

[WadePatton]

Topknot,
It's all been tried, no joy.  It's time to move on.  The cost of a new barrel is pretty minimal ...

I'm curious as to what all has been tried.  Are the patches perfect?  Are you using round balls?  

Yeah, you gotta do all the fitting work or pay for it done-which will significantly increase the "cost".

Nipping the bbl might be the most cost efficient thing to do. It depends on who does it and how much fore-end/sight reworking is necessary, BUT this was not an uncommon thing for originals with excessive muzzle wear or damage.

[David R. Pennington]

I'm sure Ed Rayl could make one.

[WaterFowl]

Another option....

I can recommend...Robert Hoyt at the Freischutz Shop, 700 Fairfield Station Rd., Fairfield, Pa. 17320.

He could line your barrel or bore it and rifle to the next larger caliber.

[Lucky R A]

     I dealt with a similar situation.  My client a very good shot could not get a group out of a 46" Rice barrel that had been coned (after market).  When I received the gun I shot it, with a fairly light load it grouped fair, but nothing to write home about.  As I pushed the charge up the fliers started.  The client had requested that the barrel be cut back two inches to the rear of the front sight dovetail.  The stock was likewise cut back and the nose cap refitted.   Luckily, the front R.R. thimble was set far enough back that the muzzle could be refinished w/o setting the pipes back.  I shot the rifle after the work and it shot very nice groups through a range of powder charges.  The groups were up to the standards usually experienced with Jason's barrels.   This route was much less expensive than going the way of a new barrel.  As always your mileage may vary.
Ron

[Doc Coles]

Thanks fellas. The gun does not group.  No need to go through everything we tried to get it to shoot, it was enough to convince me that short of cutting it down, replacing the barrel is the way to go if I want to keep it.

I do a lot of work on cartridge guns but don't do much with muzzleloaders.  There is no problem cutting dovetails for the sights etc.  It would be good to have the breach plug in, but that can be done as well.  In fact, it might be best to fit the breach plug from the barrel I have to a new barrel since it already fits the stock.  

As I mentioned before, I would rather not cut the barrel and stock down since the length is what I like about the gun.

[bob in the woods]

From what you say, it is more than likely a Chambers Early Lancaster.  Take measurements, ..call Chambers, and they'll probably have one. No muss, no fuss.  The barrels come with the breach installed.  Or….you could send the barrel out and have the 1st couple of inches reamed to get rid of the coning.  This will give a nice sharp face to the end of the rifling , and a " chamber" so to speak, to load your patched ball. I had a barrel like this, and it shot pretty well.

[WadePatton]

Then there's one more option that maintains the perfect bbl length.  Square up the cone.  (uh, Bob ITW got me with my longwindedness, great minds eh Bob?)


I asked about "everything you've gone through" because each time i "go out unto" the "world of those gals/guys who only shoot BP infrequently" I find the same old wives' tales and lore being taken as gospel.  

Most recently it had to do with priming powder granulation and the discussion was completely contrary to Pletcher's work*.  Which goes to show that there is a lot of misinformation yet being relied upon, and may very well play into unsatisfactory results with these long guns.

We have no idea if you've been following that sort of advice or sound advice/practice.  So I was seeking clarification on some level.  I loaded and hunted and shot competition with cartridge guns for years and kept very high accuracy standards, took lots of game and won the rifle/pistol championship one year, but these ain't those.  I'm always learning more.

Sounds like you want a barrel, go for it. You can probably sell the original bbl easily enough-once you've copied it, and or build another gun around it.

*some of the debunking that goes on around here.

[smylee grouch]

You cant get a group but dont mention what you expect for acuracy as far as a group goes. I had a Chambers eary Lancaster with the coned muzzle also. It didnt group near as well as all my other rifles but still was a good shooter out to 50 yds for deer.

[Doc Coles]

Again, thanks for the input.  I was trying to keep the thread focused on the question of replacing the barrel.  The best I have been able to get out of this gun was 4 inches at 25 yards off the bench for three shots, but frankly I think that was a fluke.  A more typical performance, again off the bench was needing 10 shots to hit an 8.5 x11 sheet of paper 5 times. I know that the flintlocks are there own kettle of fish, but that is a lot worse than what I can live with.

I have been shooting BP guns since I was a child in the 60s, though not many flintlock rifles (I have shot primarily flintlock smooth-bore muskets and pistols, match locks and wheel locks, cap-lock rifles and rifled muskets, cap-lock breachloaders and revolvers).  I travel in a crowd of BP shooters and was shooting with the local BP club when I was working on loads for this gun so I got good input from some good flintlock shooters when I could not find a load that would work.  I traded this gun from a friend, another experienced BP shooter.  When I had trouble building a load, I called him and he said he had the same problem with the gun.   Despite the problem, I am in the gun very right (about $500 in trade goods and the kit for it is currently about $880) so there is room to fix it if it can be done. 

If it is not possible to replace the barrel, counterboring the muzzle would be a solution of sorts.  At least it would keep the original length.    But we are not there yet.    I am doing some measurements on the barrel to see if any of the available barrels folks have mentioned will work. 

[Gaeckle]

........Kinda wondering, but have you retrieved any of your patches? Patches tell a lot about what is happening to a barrel. May be as simple a fix at removing a burr, sharp edge on a land.....

[Doc Coles]

Well, there were a lot of them, but the goal was to keep them from being cut or blown and when I saw evidence of either corrections were made.  Sorry I can't bee too specific since this gun has been hanging on the wall for the last two years since I could not get it to shoot well. 

[bama]

Doc pull the barrel and look at the bottom flat at the breech, you should see the makers mark. Contact the barrel maker about a new barrel. It may be possible that you can get the barrel with the dovetails cut by the barrel maker. If not it is not to hard to cut your own dovetails. If you try to reuse the breech plug be sure that it gets seated properly. If it is a flint you may have to remove the touch hole liner to remove the plug.

If you are not comfortable doing all of this, find the closest builder and have him do the work. There are a lot of guys on this board that can do the work. I can do if you can not find someone close. Send me a PM if you want to discuss it.

[Gaeckle]

May look at the possibility of the pins holding the barrel may have become bent. Lot of guys build a gun, pinning the barrel to the stock and let it go at that. The stock swells and puts pressure on the very same spot at where the pins anchor the barrel to the wood, barrel bends all over the place, shots go all over the place and any consistancy is long gone. Being swamped, it may even be that the maker cut his dovetails to deep, possibly allowing the barrel to maybe bend a bit at that point, flexing with each shot....might be something other than the cone job done at the muzzle.

How about a picture of the muzzle......may be helpful, may not.

Just another idea.....horse trade it back to the guy who traded it to you.

[Doc Coles]

Thanks Jim, I might do that.  

I measured the barrel and compared it to the dimensions shown on the Rice site for the barrel they say will fit the Chambers Lancaster rifle it it is within 10 thousandths at all points measured so that looks like the right choice.  

[Karl Kunkel]

Doc,

if you order the replacement barrel from Buckeye Barrels (Blackpowder Barbie), or from Rice, they will cut the dove tails for the barrel lugs to fit the Chambers Lancaster stock.

[WadePatton]

May look at the possibility of the pins holding the barrel may have become bent. Lot of guys build a gun, pinning the barrel to the stock and let it go at that. The stock swells and puts pressure on the very same spot at where the pins anchor the barrel to the wood, barrel bends all over the place, shots go all over the place and any consistancy is long gone. Being swamped, it may even be that the maker cut his dovetails to deep, possibly allowing the barrel to maybe bend a bit at that point, flexing with each shot....might be something other than the cone job done at the muzzle.

How about a picture of the muzzle......may be helpful, may not.

Just another idea.....horse trade it back to the guy who traded it to you.

I'd pull the bbl and double check the pins and fitment too (i'm of the horizontal clearance school on those last two pins), then get that cone re-cut but squarely by a machinist.  Then re-shoot.  If that doesn't fix it then it's something else of course, but if it does then it saves a lot of work/time and maybe a few bucks.

Can't trade it back, word is out that it don't shoot.  

Best luck, and keep us informed.

[Doc Coles]

Gaeckle,
True, but wouldn't the cure for these other ills be the same as for fixing the cone (replacing the barrel)?

[Doc Coles]

It looks like rice makes the barrel  I need for about $265 and that they will cut the dovetails (except the rear sight) for an additional $20.  So, for less than $300 plus shipping it looks like I will be a long way to where I want to be.

I really like this gun and it would cost me a lot more than the cost of a new barrel to buy another one like it.  I would not pass it off on someone else.

Thanks for all the help.