Looking for a replacement barrel for a Chambers long rifle

[little joe]

I've shot ML and BP for 40 years and some years back I started ignoring what I had learned. Still a fair offhand shooter till 7 yrs. ago. and due to some health issues I would shoot off a bench with  horrible groups. I was resting my gun  where my left hand would be for offhand shooting. I was having fun but  shooting awful. A friend said, hey pay attention, and rest gun not more than than 4 in.  from the muzzle,  My groups shrank from 1 ft. down to 1 inch. This is a Rice 40 cal x 7-8 in bbl. x 42 in. legnth and 40 grains of powder, flint , open hunting sights. Having a very good time now. Several years back (12) I had a Getz  54 cal. that Don had coned and it shot very well.  Rice will not cone  a bbl to my knowledge , so you have a  cone job done by some one else or possibly Getz. I don,t believe the cone is the problem, and it could be some of the above mentionted or as in my case sloppy shooting  practices.

[Gaeckle]

Gaeckle,
True, but wouldn't the cure for these other ills be the same as for fixing the cone (replacing the barrel)?

........no........sell the gun is the best cure, but, a common cure to some military cartridge guns that have a worn crown is to counter-bore the end of the barrel...then they shoot great.

The stream of info is that the gun doesn't shoot and cannot group, but there isn't much info on such things as patch thickness, patch type, how much is on the ball, what the patches look like after being shot, discovery for any sharp edges...the list can on and on.

Personally, I am of the mindset of more detective work, but it's your project. Heck, I'd even tack the barrel out of the gun, load it, secure it on a platform by some way, put a target 10 yards from it and ignite the chrge with ball, patch and all and see where that goes after a series of shots.

Good luck with this......gotta be the cone.

[Doc Coles]

All true, but the odds of it being entirely due to my sloppy shooting practices are somewhat decreased by the fact that it has not performed for multiple owners and shooters.  It also did not shoot reliably better for me or the other experienced flintlock shooters I had shoot it offhand.  

Having said that, do I know absolutely that the cone is the problem?  Of course not.  On the other hand, I have never heard of cutting a cone in a barrel to improve its accuracy.  For example, target shooters don't do it.  So, it's pretty likely that by replacing the barrel with one without the cone accuracy will improve.  Then, at least that way if it still shoots poorly I will know where to place the blame... On the nut behind the buttstock!

$300 and some work is not a bad price to pay and it would still leave me with a barrel to cut down and use on something else.  

[Doc Coles]

Grackle,
Selling the gun on to someone else is not the same as fixing it.  Besides, I like the gun.  It's lovely, the wood is tiger striped the entire length of the stock and it fits me like a glove.  The only thing I don't like about it is that it does not shoot well.   I am in it right, even if I buy a new barrel I have less money in it  than the current cost of a Chambers kit.  So why not get a new barrel and see if that fixes it?

[WadePatton]

Grackle,
Selling the gun on to someone else is not the same as fixing it.  Besides, I like the gun.  It's lovely, the wood is tiger striped the entire length of the stock and it fits me like a glove.  The only thing I don't lie about it is that it does not shoot well.   I am in it right, even if I buy a new barrel it's less than the current cost of a Chambers kit.  So why not get a new barrel and see if that fixes it?

I'm no Gaekle but, (and pardon my redundancy)

I could get the cone re-reamed/removed taking out only a tiny bit of material for way less than 100.  And be ready to shoot as soon as I put the bbl back into the stock. That's why for me. 

But certainly do as you please. 

[Gaeckle]

All true, but the odds of it being entirely due to my sloppy shooting practices are somewhat decreased by the fact that it has not performed for multiple owners and shooters.  It also did not shoot reliably better for me or the other experienced flintlock shooters I had shoot it offhand.  

Having said that, do I know absolutely that the cone is the problem?  Of course not.  On the other hand, I have never heard of cutting a cone in a barrel to improve its accuracy.  For example, target shooters don't do it.  So, it's pretty likely that by replacing the barrel with one without the cone accuracy will improve.  Then, at least that way if it still shoots poorly I will know where to place the blame... On the nut behind the buttstock!

$300 and some work is not a bad price to pay and it would still leave me with a barrel to cut down and use on something else.  

This makes sense.....hope this works out

[Doc Coles]

I pulled the barrel and its marked Getz Beavertown PA .50 1/66".  The dovetails are quite shallow and well fitted.

[KLMoors]

Getz makes a real nice barrel. It's a shame someone screwed it up, but stuff happens. Get another Getz, or a Rice, and have some fun enjoying an accurate gun!

If you are anywhere near northeastern NC, I'd be glad to help you get a new barrel installed.

[Doc Coles]

Thanks a lot for the offer but I am in Anchorage, Alaska.  I have an email into Rice about a barrel and will see how that goes.

[omark]

I don't understand your reluctance to have the cone redone properly. It would be the easiest and cheapest fix if it worked. And please don't anyone try to tell me that coned barrels can't shoot. I have shot heavily coned bbls for 40 yrs. Not bench rest shooting but local shoots and have even won one now and again and when I miss hunting, I can't blame the gun.       Mark

[Angus]

Ream it out and hand cut the rifling.

[JTR]

I agree with the Doc!
Just get a new barrel, do what you need to fit it and put it in, and go out and enjoy shooting it!

I made a long rifle many years ago, used a coned 36 cal barrel, and it wouldn't shoot worth and dang. In fact, wouldn't shoot decent groups no matter what I, or anyone else did. So I tucked it away in the closet and shot a different gun with excellent success. A couple years ago I came across the rifle again and thought about shooting it. But then I remembered all the frustration from years ago, and instead of retracing those steps, just ordered a new Rice barrel, put it in, and the rifle shoots like a dream now!

I don't know what the problem was with the original barrel, but strongly suspect it was the cone.

John 

[Pete G.]

Fred Stutzenberger wrote up a series of precise experiments with both coning and counterboring. In all cases the coned/relieved barrels shot worse than with the unconed best load. In some cases accuracy was marginally improved with further load development, but in most cases it was degraded, and in some instances by quite a bit. Patches were probably the culprit in that most were torn and/or burned considerably by blowby in the relieved portion of the barrel. There is some argument that he did not cone the barrels properly, taking out some of the grove portion as well as the lands, but in ALL cases of counterboring, the patches were blown and accuracy was worse.

Perhaps the barrel in question in this thread was coned similar to the barrel in the experiments and might could be salvaged by shortening the barrel by 1/2" or so.

[Mike Brooks]

I'd check to see if the under lugs are slotted properly, check how well the breech end of the barrel has been fitted in the wood, check vent liner hole size. Sounds to me like the barrel is moving in the stock giving different points of impact every shot.
 I have shot coned barrels before, no problemo.

[smallpatch]

Doc,
I've been following this over the last few days, kind of waiting to respond.
First of all.... Listen to Mike. The man has built more guns than most of us have probably held in our lives.
Secondly, the only real variable here, is the cone, and the question is whether it was properly done.
A properly done cone is simply a recessed crown. So your 44" barrel is simply crowned at 42 ½".

Does that make sense?
Now, if the cone was NOT done properly, all bets are off.
Just a suggestion, .. Why not see if Mr Getz (or a knowledgeable gun maker) would have a look at it for you, before you spend a lot of money for a new barrel that will shoot just like the one you have?
I'm sorry that this has worked out this way for you, and wish you the best.

[little joe]

I had a friend make me a couple of coning tools  , one a big bore one small bore. Haven,t used the small one but have coned a 50 and a 54 On the 54 I did have to reajust the front sight .030 for windage at 25 yds. It is a used Golden Age Arms bbl. in 54 cal and 1 in 48 twist. For a used bbl and back yard shop I,m well pleased. About 1 inch center to center  at 25 yds off a bench.  My thoughts are coning may change the point of impact but it still group. I am going to cone the 50 I,m working now however woun,t mount a nose cap. I,ll shot it and then cone it and let you guys know. I have my openions and thoughts, and I may have just been lucky on the 54. Bueatiful fall shooting weather here in s. Indiana

[little joe]

I have been shooting a 50 cal. Colrain B wt. x 42 in. used but serviceable barrel.  55 grains of 3f, 15 thousands patching and .495 ball.Before coning I shot 2 pretty good groups for me1.5 inch at 40 yds off a set of tall cross sticks and a kitchen chair.  Took the gun home and cleaned the bbl. and adjusted the sights and coned it with my home made tools .Took it to the range today and was very happy with the group 1.25 at the above procedures. Not saying it helped as I,m mellowing in with the rifle, but it did not hurt anything. The barrel was given to me by a friend who wanted a Rice bbl.in his rifle. I,ll take the Getz bbl in question and have a blast playing with it.     Joe

[Doc Coles]

It's been a bit since I checked on this post.   Thanks for all the information.  I thought the comments on proper way to cone a barrel were interesting.  Looking at mine, the last half inch has been coned to the point where there are no grooves left in the bore.  This seems a bit more than is recommended for good accuracy.  

I am still going to go with the new barrel from Rice.  It looks like the best solution to get it done.  They are going to fit my breach plug to a new barrel so I don't have problems with the inletting.  I am working on getting some new pin blocks for the bottom of the barrel from chambers so Rice can fit them at the same time.  I am also going to look into an improved vent.  Sounds like pretty much one stop shopping.

[smallpatch]

Doc,
I'll take the old barrel when you're done!

Seriously! Let me know what you want for it.

[WadePatton]

It's been a bit since I checked on this post.   Thanks for all the information.  I thought the comments on proper way to cone a barrel were interesting.  Looking at mine, the last half inch has been coned to the point where there are no grooves left in the bore.  This seems a bit more than is recommended for good accuracy.  

...

speaking out of turn again, i must comment that methinks the cone is all about having a squared and proper transition to the actual end of the bbl and the axis of the bore. 

Interested to see where this original bbl lands and how it shoots with muzzle fixment. 

[Martin S.]

I would like to know how this turned out.

I have a rifle with a coned barrel, and I am having a hard time getting it to group.

I have not given up yet, but I am wondering if the cone is part of the problem.

[Ky-Flinter]

I would like to know how this turned out.

Since this thread is from 2014 and Doc Coles is no longer a member, we're not likely to find out how his barrel swap turned out.  Unless, of course, Smallpatch was able to make a deal on the old barrel.

-Ron

[Martin S.]

I knew it was a long shot.

I have a coned barrel that I can't seem to dial in.

I think my next step is to try a tighter ball/patch combo.

Of course, it could just be my old eyes, but I shot another rifle today and it grouped nicely.

[little joe]

Doc  Its kinda hard to help if we don,t know what your patches look like, patch thickness, ball size and powder charge and caliber. Don Getz coned a bbl for me  years ago and it shot fine. Don said the only difference he could tell was the coned one loaded easier. Hate to see you spend 300 plus dollars and it not help.

[Martin S.]

Little Joe, I resurrected a very old thread.

I should have started a new one under Black Powder Shooting, but I found this thread using search.

Sorry for the confusion.