Author Topic: Linen Thread Problem  (Read 10129 times)

Offline Mark Elliott

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5191
    • Mark Elliott  Artist & Craftsman
Linen Thread Problem
« on: October 28, 2014, 07:34:56 AM »
About three months ago,  I made an 18th century type men's pocketbook for myself to use as a new wallet.   I have carried it every time I went out since.   The problem is that the linen thread started to come out over the weekend.  It looks like it has just disintegrated in the leather.   The pocketbook is made of goat skin about 2oz.   It is sewn with 2-3 strands of waxed linen thread.   The leather was stained with AF and not neutralized.    I don't neutralize leather because when I did, it caused the leather to dry rot very quickly.  Basically,  I made this pocket book the same way I make all my other leather work.   It is just used a lot more.   It looks like I am going to have to pull all the stitches and re-stitch.    Does any body have an idea what  went wrong and how to make sure it doesn't happen again?   

I have had leather break on my other work, but never had the linen thread fail.   

Thanks,


Offline Hungry Horse

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5420
Re: Linen Thread Problem
« Reply #1 on: October 28, 2014, 08:40:49 AM »
 It sounds like the unneutralized AF ate the linen thread, or weakened it to the point of failure.

              Hungry Horse

Offline Chuck Burrows

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1218
    • Wild Rose Trading Company
Re: Linen Thread Problem
« Reply #2 on: October 28, 2014, 10:52:51 AM »
 
Quote
Mark -  I don't neutralize leather because when I did, it caused the leather to dry rot very quickly.
Sounds like you may be be overdoing it and causing alkali burn.
Two roads diverged in a wood, and I,
I took the one less traveled by,
And that has made all the difference.

Offline Pete G.

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2003
Re: Linen Thread Problem
« Reply #3 on: October 28, 2014, 04:26:25 PM »
My first thought is that the problem is the AF stain. It is after all, an acid.

Offline thecapgunkid

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1080
  • Matthew 25:40
Re: Linen Thread Problem
« Reply #4 on: October 29, 2014, 01:48:09 AM »
What did you lube/wax  the thread with when you stitched?  The advice  in the replies is sound but have you looked at the rest of the spool....maybe you just hit a weak section of the thread.  Try takiing some random lengths and fuzzing the ends.  the weaker threads will usually fuzz up really quickly.

It is unusual for linen thread to do that.  How old was it?

Offline Mark Elliott

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5191
    • Mark Elliott  Artist & Craftsman
Re: Linen Thread Problem
« Reply #5 on: October 29, 2014, 07:04:50 AM »
The thread was a bit weak.  It broke a number of times during the original stitching.    I may have also not waxed the thread well enough after I split it. 

Offline thecapgunkid

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1080
  • Matthew 25:40
Re: Linen Thread Problem
« Reply #6 on: October 29, 2014, 12:22:21 PM »
If you can get your hands on some hemp thread and twist it into the plies it'll compensate.  I actually had to ask a spinner to make me some because it is hard to find.

Dunno if you do this sort of thing, so please forgive if I sound like I am patronizing, but whenever I stitch 18th century I have found this useful;

Take your span of linen and about six inches extra. Take another span of hemp.  Both are unwaxed.

Clamp the ends in a bench vice or knot them on a hook.  Either manually or with a low speed drill and eyelet bit, unwrap the first span counterclockwise until it starts to reverse and then pin it, trying to keep it from twisting.  Do the same with the second thread.  Don't worry about the three or four inches on the end yet, saving that for tapering and waxing those ends.

Now un pin the first thread, stretch them both taught and  twist them up in their original direction.   It'll be a touchy-feely thing to figure out how tight is tight for the twist.

Wax the living $#@* outta the newly interwoven thread. Whether you you have COAD or beeswax, load up the thread, take no prisoners, and burnish it in with your fingers if you are a tough guy or a leather pad if you're a New England Pats fan ( Steelers here, so I am not supposed to ever forgive you for what you did to us....anyway...).  Leave the ends raw so you can taper them and wax them up good also when satisfied with the taper.

My master always used 2 individual plies hemp and a span of one to three  ply linen, unless he was using a 5 ply linen then he would only use one ply hemp.  He'd threaten the strap if I snapped the stitch tight, always urging me to pull firmly to close.  If you are using COAD it'll actually impregnate the stitch unless you have a hole the size of the Holland Tunnel and are using those big harness needles.

Again, forgive me if you already do this sort of thing and I am beneath your skill curve. Give that a shot and let us all know...K?


Offline Virginiarifleman

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 485
Re: Linen Thread Problem
« Reply #7 on: October 29, 2014, 04:53:18 PM »
Mark, i use linen thread in all my leather builds. i wax it with beeswax. ive never had the problem your having. and it seems its pre mature for the thread to break down in that short time. i would guess its a chemical break down too.

Offline tpr-tru

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 62
Re: Linen Thread Problem
« Reply #8 on: October 29, 2014, 06:11:56 PM »
Mark,   sorry, but I just have to say it.     I believe you need more green backs in there to give the moths something to eat.

Offline Mark Elliott

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5191
    • Mark Elliott  Artist & Craftsman
u
« Reply #9 on: October 29, 2014, 10:11:18 PM »
thecapgunkid,

Thanks for the info.   Where do you get hemp thread?

As to my level of expertise,  I have been doing leather work for 40 years but I am self taught.   Accordingly,  I have no idea of what I don't know that I should know.    That is why I asked the question here.  I know there are a number of expert leather workers on this forum.   


Offline Mark Elliott

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5191
    • Mark Elliott  Artist & Craftsman
Re: Linen Thread Problem
« Reply #10 on: October 29, 2014, 10:16:05 PM »
tpr-tru,

You are right,  I don't have many green backs in that wallet.   I am taking donations, if you are interested in contributing.  ;)

Offline Chuck Burrows

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1218
    • Wild Rose Trading Company
Re: u
« Reply #11 on: October 30, 2014, 12:14:29 AM »
thecapgunkid,

Thanks for the info.   Where do you get hemp thread?

Hemp Thread Suppliers

for VERY good linen thread see these folks http://www.fineleatherworking.com/linen-thread
« Last Edit: October 30, 2014, 12:17:09 AM by Chuck Burrows »
Two roads diverged in a wood, and I,
I took the one less traveled by,
And that has made all the difference.

Offline Virginiarifleman

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 485
Re: Linen Thread Problem
« Reply #12 on: October 30, 2014, 12:38:32 AM »
Wilde Weavery also has a good quality Linen thread. i wax my own.

omark

  • Guest
Re: Linen Thread Problem
« Reply #13 on: October 30, 2014, 06:38:02 AM »
Not knowing where u got the thread, I made the mistake of trying Walmart waxed linen and could break it with my bare hands.    Mark

Offline LRB

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1567
    • WICK ELLERBE
Re: Linen Thread Problem
« Reply #14 on: October 30, 2014, 03:25:46 PM »
  I had the same experience with Walmart thread.

   CHUCK. I am using a 6 ply linen thread, unknown source. No markings. A spool was given to me, and I am very satisfied with it, but one day it will be gone. How would that #332, or the #432 from that site you gave compare in thickness?

Offline Chris Treichel

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 916
Re: Linen Thread Problem
« Reply #15 on: October 30, 2014, 03:47:21 PM »
For hemp thread go to your local craft store... they sell it in the beading isle.  I get mine a Michaels and wax it with a 50/50 mixture of beeswax and pine pitch.  That is what cordwainers use to sew shoes.  The pine pitch makes it really hold together as when the threads pass each other they heat up just enough to melt the pitch a bit and really glues everything together.  Just don't make any mistakes cause it can be a PITA to get apart.

Just so you don't think I'm making this up... here is a site for recreating shoes that discusses it.  http://aands.org/raisedheels/Techniques/coad.php

FYI... I go 50/50 because I cook my own pine pitch down a bit so its half way to rosin... so mine works at 50/50 whatever... its a bit of a feel thing.
« Last Edit: October 30, 2014, 03:53:51 PM by Chris Treichel »

Offline Chris Treichel

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 916
Re: Linen Thread Problem
« Reply #16 on: October 30, 2014, 03:56:33 PM »

Offline Chuck Burrows

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1218
    • Wild Rose Trading Company
Re: Linen Thread Problem
« Reply #17 on: October 30, 2014, 06:44:00 PM »
  I had the same experience with Walmart thread.

   CHUCK. I am using a 6 ply linen thread, unknown source. No markings. A spool was given to me, and I am very satisfied with it, but one day it will be gone. How would that #332, or the #432 from that site you gave compare in thickness?
The 332 is the thickest and is equivalent to Barbour's 18/4 (the first number is the gauge of the strands and the second the number of strands).

On pre-made threads I generally use no thicker than 18/5 even on saddles and mostly now use 18/4 at 8 SPI or 20/3 at 10 SPI which is more in keeping with period stitching anyway.

You should still be able to get Barbour's Red Hand Linen in 6 cord from Campbell-Randall
Barbour's Red Hand Linen
I would call and check supply. The Hungarian Linen thread from all reports I've heard is OK but not great - a bit harder lay and more prone to breakage.
Two roads diverged in a wood, and I,
I took the one less traveled by,
And that has made all the difference.

Offline Mad Monk

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1033
Re: Linen Thread Problem
« Reply #18 on: November 18, 2014, 05:10:28 AM »
When you look at linen thread cut about a foot and start to unwind it.  Looking at how long the individual fibers are that make up the thread.  I had problems with weak bees waxed linen thread.  Turned out the individual fibers were very short.  Another roll from another supplier had long individual threads.

When I was doing my linseed oil research I read that flax was grown for either the fiber or the flax seed oil (linseed oil).  When the crop is cut for the best fiber qualities the seeds are not ripe and give a low yield of linseed oil.  If the crop is allowed to go to fully ripe seeds, for maximum oil yield, the flax fiber is not as good as that cut earlier.

Mad Monk

Offline Mark Elliott

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5191
    • Mark Elliott  Artist & Craftsman
Re: Linen Thread Problem
« Reply #19 on: November 22, 2014, 01:04:29 AM »
Chuck,

I ordered a couple spools of that French waxed linen thread you recommended.   It made what I was using look like garbage and that is where I put the old stuff.  It seems that the quality of the thread I was using was the problem.  It was Ok as long as I didn't split it, but the split thread had little to no strength.  So,  problem solved.  I order thread of different thicknesses so that I didn't have to split it.  Thanks

Mark

Offline Mark Elliott

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5191
    • Mark Elliott  Artist & Craftsman
Re: Linen Thread Problem
« Reply #20 on: November 22, 2014, 05:52:49 AM »
This is the object I was having trouble with, showing it restitched with the new thread


garra

  • Guest
Re: Linen Thread Problem
« Reply #21 on: November 23, 2014, 08:18:41 PM »
Here is a source for some Swiss linen thread, not sure if price is for one spool or what is shone.  Nice folks, a call would clear up any questions.

http://deutscheoptik.com/Spools-of-Linen-Thread.html