unusual breech plugs.

[jerrywh]

 Joseph Manton Made some barrels where the breech plug screwed over the outside of the barrel. This allowed for the bore to extend all the way to the end of the chamber without any difference in the interior except for the touch hole.  Any thought on this?

[Dave B]

Was not the breach on some rifles made during the civil war also had barrels threading into the breach this way?

[rich pierce]

How is this functionally different from a standard flint breech setup?  Doesn't the full diameter bore extend all the way to the face of the breech plug on a standard breech?

[flehto]

Screwing the breechplug  onto the outside of the bbl certainly is stronger as is done w/ modern CFs, but doesn't this make the breech end of the bbl quite ungainly? If I'm understanding this correctly, there would be a step from the bbl to the breecplug surface...doesn't seem this would look very graceful?......Fred..

[rich pierce]

Fred, the way I am envisioning it is like an octagonal section with a tang, drilled and threaded, and the rear of the barrel turned down and threaded (male).  When installed there should be no step.  But not essentially different inside, if I am right, from a standard flint breech.

[flehto]

Thanks for the insight....the breech size would have to be quite large to do what you stated, which is probably correct. I was thinking of modern CFs which have the step......of course the pressures are much greater than w/ BP......Fred

[Acer Saccharum]

Since the bore would run deeply into the breechpiece, the touchhole could be placed very far back.

You'd want good quality steel for the breech.

[smylee grouch]

Its my understanding that Joe Manton was considered an inovator and was alot of times trying anything new to stay ahead of the competition in a very competitive gun market in London. From what I've read some of his ideas beared fruit and some did not.

[E.vonAschwege]

You'd want good quality steel for the breech.

Are you trying to start something?? Huh? 



Jerry, I like the idea of this for strength and allowing some variation in the TH placement.  Do you have any photos of a Manton or other English gun with this set up?  I imagine it looks similar to a patent breech on the outside. 
-Eric

[jerrywh]

Yeah. I have them somewhere. I think they are in the Manton book.

[Dphariss]

There was a lot of "snake oil" in even the high end British Gun trade trying to get people to think that what the maker was doing was "special". Apparently the lack of many surviving guns with the barrel threaded on the outside indicates this was probably one of these. The only real, practical, breech improvements I know of are the Nock, the Manton recess and the inside coned vent.

Dan

[smart dog]

Hi Folks,
Perhaps we need some documentation here.  From Neal and Back  "The Mantons: Gunmakers" page 16:

"John Manton (not Joe) designed a breech which, instead of screwing into the barrel, screwed over it, .....  He took out a patent for this in 1797, and was still using it as late as 1808.  Hawker refers to it on page 29 of his 2nd edition, adding that he had to relinquish it because it was proved unsafe.  The fact remains that John Manton turned out a large number of guns with this form of breech over a period of 10 years.  A cased single barrel in the collection with the serial number 4992 made in 1808 shows signs of much wear and use, and we have never observed one damaged or in dangerous condition.  It did have one great advantage over the conventional form of breech, in that it was much easier to unscrew; so much so that it is possible that owners of these guns tended to unbreech them too often and by so doing wore the threads, which could cause weakness". 

Neal and Back include some photos and also list several examples of these guns in their appendix.

dave   

[WadePatton]

Would not this external design be more accurately called a "breech cap" instead of a "plug"?