Author Topic: Chisel graver geometry  (Read 7013 times)

Online Randall Steffy

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Chisel graver geometry
« on: February 12, 2009, 05:40:09 AM »
I am using a hammer driven chisel type graver to cut a border. I am practicing the border that is a string of diamonds or triangular recesses where you dive in and lower the graver and tap up out again and sometimes use a meshing second row of triangles. Sometimes the border appears more like half moons.

I am sure there must be ideal face and heel angles and would appreciate an experienced engraver's insight.

Thank-you.

Offline P.Bigham

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Re: Chisel graver geometry
« Reply #1 on: February 12, 2009, 06:40:09 AM »
 I  use a No. 1 die sinkers chisel with a 45 deg face and a 23 deg heel. I don't consider myself a experienced engraver thought. Others may help you more.
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Offline rick landes

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Re: Chisel graver geometry
« Reply #2 on: February 12, 2009, 04:39:18 PM »
The Ngraver site may give your answer too...there are some good folks there too! ;)
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brokenflint

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Re: Chisel graver geometry
« Reply #3 on: February 12, 2009, 05:03:12 PM »
Rick  this a Ngraver site a forum?

Kentucky Jeff

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Re: Chisel graver geometry
« Reply #4 on: February 12, 2009, 09:26:43 PM »
IF you are talking about a nick and dot type border the triangles are cut with a push engraver that is cut with a much steeper (Flatter AND wider face) and no bottom angle.   You basically just push into the cut line.  (always push into a cut line).  The wavy line is executed with a standard engraver but its tilted a little to widen the cut at the top of the curve.  The stand alone triangles in a nick and dot are simply created by taking your push graver and pushing straight down.

The best way to get the angle on the face of the push graver is to grind it some and try it on a practice piece.  If its not getting you the cut you want steepen the face angle and flatten out the bottom of the chisel to 130 to 160 degrees.  Again--you don't need a bottom angle for a push graver.  Its only purpose is to keep you cutting in the groove when your are using a hammer. 

Offline Randy Hedden

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Re: Chisel graver geometry
« Reply #5 on: February 12, 2009, 10:15:49 PM »
There are more than a couple of methods to cut the "nick & dot" or "nick & cut" borders.

I have seen John Schippers use a standard "V" shaped engraving tool and while cutting down a  line he just leans the graver over away from the edge of the piece being engraved and then brings the graver back up straight.  I have tried this many times and have never had any luck getting it to look good.

Then there is the method that Jeff just put forth in his reply. I guess if it works for Jeff it is okay, but I have never had much success using push gravers on anything but softer materials like gold and silver.

I use a chisel graver that is sharpened much like a regular chisel graver, except there are no flat angles on the chisel I use for a nick and dot border.  Rather than having angles my chisel graver for doing nick & cut borders has a slight convex radius on each side of the face of the chisel.  I believe that the radius just naturally lifts the chisel out of the cut after diving the graver in to cut the first half of the nick.  I tilt the chisel up to dive into the material and then lower the chisel to cut the second half of the nick.  This method is exactly like what Randall is trying.

When I first started engraving I practiced the nick & cut borders for hours and hours before I was able to make each cut relatively like the previous cut and all the same size.

Randy Hedden

www.harddogrifles.com

 
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J.D.

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Re: Chisel graver geometry
« Reply #6 on: February 12, 2009, 10:47:30 PM »
What I know about engraving will barely fill a pin prick on soft metal, however,
I remember seeing someone, don't remember who, who used a #38 or
#40 flat graver, ground as a bright cut graver, for the chip cut. A bright cut graver is simply a flat graver with a very slight radius ground on each corner, and slight heel, if I remember correctly.

Offline rick landes

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Re: Chisel graver geometry
« Reply #7 on: February 13, 2009, 12:36:51 AM »
Rick  this a Ngraver site a forum?

Of all the things I have lost I miss my mind the most...
Ngraver is a company the direction I was to reference is

 http://www.igraver.com/forum/index.php?s=25d89cfdc6906090237a95ce4d0502cf

Like I had shared B$ good folks just like you meet here...so sorry for the run around :(
“No free man shall ever be de-barred the use of arms. The strongest reason for the people to retain their right to keep and bear arms is as a last resort to protect themselves against tyranny in government." Thomas Jefferson

Kentucky Jeff

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Re: Chisel graver geometry
« Reply #8 on: February 13, 2009, 12:49:30 PM »
There are more than a couple of methods to cut the "nick & dot" or "nick & cut" borders.

I have seen John Schippers use a standard "V" shaped engraving tool and while cutting down a  line he just leans the graver over away from the edge of the piece being engraved and then brings the graver back up straight.  I have tried this many times and have never had any luck getting it to look good.

Then there is the method that Jeff just put forth in his reply. I guess if it works for Jeff it is okay, but I have never had much success using push gravers on anything but softer materials like gold and silver.

I use a chisel graver that is sharpened much like a regular chisel graver, except there are no flat angles on the chisel I use for a nick and dot border.  Rather than having angles my chisel graver for doing nick & cut borders has a slight convex radius on each side of the face of the chisel.  I believe that the radius just naturally lifts the chisel out of the cut after diving the graver in to cut the first half of the nick.  I tilt the chisel up to dive into the material and then lower the chisel to cut the second half of the nick.  This method is exactly like what Randall is trying.

When I first started engraving I practiced the nick & cut borders for hours and hours before I was able to make each cut relatively like the previous cut and all the same size.

Randy Hedden

www.harddogrifles.com

 

Actually, John Schippers taught me how to do it that way!

Offline jerrywh

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Re: Chisel graver geometry
« Reply #9 on: February 13, 2009, 09:54:14 PM »




No matter what anybody tells you , there is no easy way to cut a nick and dot border. I usually takes a lot of practice to get good at it. Many of the ways you have been told are shortcut ways to try and accomplish it.  I am a master engraver in the engravers guild and it took me a long time to get it down to a acceptable level and be able to do it consistently. I tried every way that has been mentioned. The biggest obstacle I discovered was this. It is not possible to cut a real nice clean nick with a low heel angle on the graver. Almost everybody can make the first part of the cut with no trouble. Coming back out of the cut or the second half is where the hard part is.
  This is the proper graver geometry.  You need a flat graver. The heel angle should be 25 degrees. The width is important because it is used as a visual gauge to estimate the height of each nick. The graver should be just a tiny bit wider than the height of the nicks you want to cut. for steel the face angle should be 45 to 60 degrees. The harder the steel the more face angle you need to maintain the sharp edge.  For most muzzle loaders 45 degrees is good.
   The first thing you cut is the border line. The nicks are cut by holding your flat chisel at an angle, with the outside edge tilted up and  towards you.  With the bottom corner of the flat in the precut border line. Dive into the cut making a cut that looks like half of a teepee.  Now --- stop and look at the cut just a moment. Notice that the back half of the chip sticking up . There is a crease or a fold on the opposite side of the cut. This fold line or crease almost forms a perfect triangle with the front edge of the first half of the cut.  As you continue to make the second part of the cut  or the second half of the teepee. You lower the handle of the graver and at the same time you roll the graver top toward you and the edge of the cut follows that fold line right back out of the metal to make the second half of the teepee.
   This is hard to explain without seeing it done and it takes some practice to get it down. When you do you will be able to cut them backwards upside down and in both directions.
   Good clean nick and dot borders are one of the most difficult thing to learn. When I look at someone's engraving and I see a real good clean nick and dot border I know the person has what it  takes to be a professional engraver.
    I regret that I cannot show you this in person. It is almost impossible for me to describe without illustrations.
 
« Last Edit: February 14, 2009, 03:36:51 AM by jerrywh »
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Online Randall Steffy

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Re: Chisel graver geometry
« Reply #10 on: February 14, 2009, 06:48:40 AM »
Jerry, thank-you,
The border and procedure you describe so well is exactly the border I am practicing. Your detailed description and specifically the angles and width of chisel advise is exactly the help I was seeking. The learning curve just got easier. One could eventually learn by trial and error, if you practice good problem solving skills...or maybe not. Thanks each of you for the thoughtfulness and time you took to answer. This site is help the gunbuilders before us could not have dreamed of having and we could take for granted. THANKS