Gunbroker

[Avlrc]

I have not looked @ gunbroker  in  awhile. How long has this one been listed?


http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=444824170

[T*O*F]

How long has this one been listed?

It gives the start day of the auction as 9/28.  Don't know if it was previously listed or not.

[Buck]

Avlrc,
That was posted here a while back, it was grouped with 2 other rifles. 1 was a Upper Susquehahna rifle and the other was a very nice Macamant rifle. There was some debate as to whether or not is was a Beyer, I have held and studied one other very close in Architecture and decor. I came to the conclusion that with 2 very similar rifles, one attributed and 1 signed it would be safe to say the other is a Beyer. The other is currently for sale on Dick Vandenbergs website www.revwararms.com.

Buck  

[Fullstock longrifle]

The carving, wrist checkering and cheek inlay is wrong for a Beyer, the architecture is off too. I believe it to be an old restock.
Frank

[Buck]

I disagree, I believe it to be a rifle produced in the later part of his career. Though the carving appears to be possibly of the river school, it follows the patterns or style of some of his earlier work. The checkering of the wrist was probably at the owners request, look at the rifle on the website I posted. 1 rifle of the style would cause me to agree, but 2 in identical fashion causes me to believe it's his hand. Also the broad range of his style is another factor, there was a thread sometime ago that broke his various styles and types down into 10 or so variables.

Buck

[Fullstock longrifle]

I've studied Beyers work for a while now and have owned several, I've never seen carving like that on a Beyer. I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on this one Buck.
Frank

[Buck]

Frank,
Yes, respectfully.
Buck 

[Fullstock longrifle]

 
Frank

[George Roberts]

I have examined this rifle in the past.  It is not a re-stock.  The lock bolts have been replaced, and the release for the patchbox is now located in the toeplate.  The toeplate has Beyer's tulip motif.  The buttplate has the hole where the original patchbox release was located.  The nose cap is fastened with three copper pins that are riveted. The barrel has "INRI" engraved on the bottom.  The wood is all original to the piece.
George

[Buck]

I examined the other extensively, I think the likelihood of 2 restocks by the same hand is slightly possible but highly unlikely. Beyer's work had too many different variations to just say this rifle is a restock because it doesn't follow his typical work. In review of his typical work or the highest percentage of his existing work at this time, they are typically octagonal to round barreled buck and ball - fowlers.
Generally the carving is minimally incised to none at all. I can think of 3 off the top of my head that are unsigned but are definitely Beyers work. So to dismiss it as such makes me respectfully question ones study or attention to Beyers work. I also own 2 of his rifles, and have studied a few in my short time of collecting, I think it's a Beyer.
Buck    

[Fullstock longrifle]

I examined the other extensively, I think the likelihood of 2 restocks by the same hand is slightly possible but I highly unlikely. Beyer's work had too many different variations to just say this rifle is a restock because it doesn't follow his typical work. In review of his typical work or the highest percentage of his existing work at this time, they are typically octagonal to round barreled buck and ball - fowlers.
Generally the carving is minimally incised to none at all. I can think of 3 off the top of my head that are unsigned but are definitely Beyers work. So to dismiss it as such makes me respectfully question ones study or attention to Beyers work. I also own 2 of his rifles, and have studied a few in my short time of collecting, I think it's a Beyer.
Buck    

Ok, I guess I have to fortify my opinion on why I feel this is an old restock.
I've been collecting for around 40 years and through the years I've owned 14 Nicholas Beyer rifles (I currently have 3 in my collection). Because I've owned so many, I have a real interest in them and study as many as I can when I'm at a show or see them in private collections. Your Right Buck, there are variations of his work, which I break into three parts, the early period when he wasn't long out of Beck's shop, the middle period, when he was creating what I call folk art "Dutchy" rifles and his late period when his work started to slide. I've seen a Beyer rifle that was so crude that i initially thought it was a copy of one of his guns. After much study, I realized that it was a very late gun that was made when he was an old man.  I've also seen (and owned) a Beyer that had the preening bird patchbox, that was never carved. I frequently see Beyer rifles that have carving that I've thought was added later in life to an uncarved gun. His carving pretty much all have subtle characteristics that I've only seen in Beyer's carving. so to go back to my original observation, this carving, along with the cheek piece enlay is not similar to anything I personally have seen on a rifle I thought was carved by Beyer's hand. Just my opinion, made from years of observation. So yes, I guess we need to respectfully disagree on this, but please don't question my study of Nicholas Beyer's work, I have put in the time (and money) on this. Anyhow this is all in fun right, it's good to question these things, that's how we all learn, from each other.

Frank

Ps I'm typing this on my IPhone, please excuse any spelling or grammatical errors!

[Buck]

Frank,
Agreed, it is a respectful and friendly debate.
Buck

[Robert Wolfe]

Guys, I for one appreciate the friendly debate. I've learned a bunch on this site by listening in on these discussions.

[jdm]

Buck And Frank,  I don't know a great deal about Beyer's work so I will not comment about the rifles under discussion. I Will say reading both of your comments I know more about Beyer now than before. Thank you for the discourse.   JIM

[WadePatton]

Guys, I for one appreciate the friendly debate. I've learned a bunch on this site by listening in on these discussions.

yeah, me three.

So, now i'm all burnin' to know what either or both of y'all think of the listing at RWA (referred to above) as unsigned/attributed Beyer. 

Thanks

[Buck]

Wade,
It's a Beyer. That rifle is pictured on page 172 of "Behold the Longrifle Again" (Whiskers). I will direct those who are interested to "Thoughts on the Kentucky Rifle in the Golden Age" (Kindig, I will respectfully refer to this as "Thoughts from here on out). Observe rifle No. 91. on page 235. The carving on this rifle to the rear of the cheek piece has a similar "delicate or slender" profile, also comparable in form are the finials of the scrolls (also note the Hunters Star). Next turn the page and observe rifle No. 92, compare the patch box on this rifle to the patch box on the rifle on RWA. The engraving on the lid is ALMOST identical, and the carving is somewhat similar in profile. 1 thing I would like to point out on rifle No. 92, look at the beaver tails and you will notice the 3 bird tracks. These "Bird Tracks" are present on everyone of Beyers best rifles, i.e. they mark the most elaborately embellished rifles he produced (it is interesting to note that Beck did the same thing only he used 2 in lieu of 3 marks or gouges). On the note of the 3 Bird Tracks look to rifles 96 and 97 you will notice that they are there also. In returning to rifle #92 look to rifle #93 and there is a rifle of the same Architecture and carving as the rifle pictured on RWA. The rifle on RWA appears (to me) to be a later rifle but in comparison to rifle #93 I believe it to be a Beyer.

Now compare this rifle to the rifle on Gun Broker. Though different in stock architecture (at the butt) they appear to be from the same hand (look at the Hunters Star, Carving, etc.). I know that the checkering at the wrist is a distraction, but as I stated before this was probably at the clients request. I believe both of these rifles were fabricated towards the end of his career .

I agree with Franks 3 phase theory, but I believe they are much more complex than that. His 1st 2 phases are much more complex and can be broken down into Henry Bishops 10+ different variations(So can phase 3 but the rifle quality degraded considerably at that point and the variations are more in the 3 to 5 range). Beyer utilized the Beck style with hints of Bonewitz and Reedy in his work also (on the RWA rifle you can see a hint of Reedy in the carving and if you look at rifle #95 in "Thoughts" note the carving below the cheek rest and the stock architecture it has a hint of Bonewitz). I have a pretty complex break down on how to grade the quality of Beyers work, I will post this tomorrow when I have a couple of hours to lend to the discussion.  Till tomorrow.
Buck    

[Buck]

One quick note, look at the Beck in the Library. The rifle that is elaborately detailed has the 2 "Bird Tracks" in the Beaver tails. So does Rifle 101 in "Thoughts". The best Beyer pictured in the library which is also in "The Pennsylvania - Kentucky Rifle A Lancaster Legend" also has the 3 tracks. The "Tracks" are just 1 of the many details and variations of Beyers work.
Buck

[Shreckmeister]

  It would be more than great if the referenced pictures could be posted here for those who do not
have all the mentioned books.  Gotta get working on my library because visualization just isn't enough.

[Buck]

Rob,
If I had scanning capabilities I would do so.
Buck

[Buck]

Rob,
Thank you for posting the photo.

The rifle in the middle is one of my Beyers. I believe that Frank would place this in his"middle period." I believe the rifle to be fabricated around 1810 or a fuzz earlier.

Note the 3 Bird Tracks in the Beaver Tails.

Below is Henry's Grading Scale of Beyers work: (There are 8 in lieu of the 10 I thought he had posted)

4] Knowledge regarding which style of Beyer is most desirable and better investment
      a] Fowler style with or without carving
      b] Rifle or smooth gun with Oct/Rd barrel and incise carving
      c] Rifle or Smooth gun with Oct/Rd barrel with mix of raised and incise carving
      d]   "          "         "               "        "   raised carving only
      e]   "          "         "     " full Oct. barrel and incise carving
       f]   "          "         "         "     "      "    and mix of raised and incise carving or
      g]   "          "         "         "     "      "  and raised carving only
      H]  Is it an early or late example?

Both of the rifles we are discussing fall within the parameters of (E). The rifle pictured above falls into category (F).
I would even elaborate further, The inlays also come into play.
The best of his work usually has 8 or more inlays:
1.) 2 forward the lock and lock plate.
2.) 2 at both sides of the wrist.
3.) 1 at the Thumb rest which if it is his best will be incorporated into the tang carving. At this detail the Beaver tail with the opera style carving around the thumb rest is his most impressive. Another one of his details here is at the convergence of the carving around the thumb rest there are 2 leaves on either side. The leaves are carved at different heights to give the carving "Depth".
4.) 1 on the comb, it is either brass or silver.
5.) 1 above the cheek rest.
6.) 1 on the cheek rest.
I have also seen Circular Mother of Pearl inlays and a couple of others with coins. I have seen B thru G with alternate variations of the inlay configuration above. He also had at least 4 stock configurations which can be seen in "Thoughts".
This is just a portion of the evidence, I believe the 2 questionable rifles are Beyers. With the utmost respect to Frank, I disagree.

Buck

P.S. I put Habus post up there by accident trying to copy Henry's post.
 

[Avlrc]

Those are wonderful rifles. Thanks for posting the photo. By the way I have enjoyed the discussion. Good stuff.

[debnal]

While not an expert in Beyers, I have seen quite a few over the past 40 years of colecting and owned several. None looked like this gun. It just doesn't have the "look." I put the word look in quotes because of all the things we use to evaluate guns the "look" is the hardest one to define. But it is important. The "look" is what makes us do incredible things and jump over hoops just to get a particular gun.
Of course we'll never really know. but if this gun were unquestionably a Beyer, there would be a lot of people falling all over themselves trying to get it.
Another thing I have learned over the past 40 years is that many antiques guns have been modified, changed, improved, altered, restored, conserved etc etc. Caveat Emptor.
Al

[Shreckmeister]

This topic brings up a subject that as a novice collector I would like to know more about.  I know about seeing if the triggerguard has multiple holes and the barrel has extra pinning locationsas evidence of restocking, but could someone with experience point out all the telltale signs for us newbys to look for?

[Buck]

Avlrc,
Thank you for the compliment, and it was my pleasure to enter into the conversations / debate.

debnal,
I respect your opinion, I am by no means an expert only a student with a trained eye for Architecture.

Rob,
Thanks again for posting the photos.

Buck

[Dennis Glazener]

Rob,
If I had scanning capabilities I would do so.
Buck

Buck, Others,
Take your digital camera and take photo of what you want to scan. Sometimes you may need to set it for "macro" but usually not. I have done that since my scanner wasn't compatible and I believe it works as well as a scanner for most things.
Dennis