S Hawken on Julia's website

[galamb]

I am always on the lookout for (new to me) Hawken's to catalog.

This one is listed on Julia's website http://jamesdjulia.com/item/3417-369/

Now, I am nowhere near a Hawken expert but a good few things look wrong with this.

While the back action lock is "uncommon" I have examples of a couple of others (40 cal and below), so that isn't a point of contention.

What is, is:

1) that Dimick style trigger guard - never seen one before - eastern and Ohio styles, yes, but not the "main competitions"

2) the key is set with the head on the right, not the left which is "typical"

3) the nose of the comb looks a little too rounded (best way I can describe it)

4) the (signature) stamp just looks a little wrong - I compared it with numerous others (which are uniformly the same) - with this the "S" (for Sam) appears to be a little wrong as does the "A" (in Hawken).

Now Sam may have had a couple of different stamps, soooooo....

What say the other students - does this look "right"

[oakridge]

I've looked at it on the website. My opinion - the gun's not right - it ain't a Hawken.

[Hungry Horse]

This rifle looks very similar to a S.Hawken rifle a local collector has. The hardware is the same, and the caliber is similar. The only difference is the lock is not a back action like this one. I think the major mistake is in the write up on this rifle. It shouldn't be listed as a plains rifle, it definitely is what was commonly called a PLAIN rifle, not a plains rifle.

                     Hungry Horse

[galamb]

Agree there - what I consider a single keyed "Squirrel, Local or Turkey rifle", but even so it is certainly "unique" compared to others built by Sam that I have seen which is why I am asking for others opinions.

[Don Stith]

If it visited my safe, I wouldn't throw it out

[Dphariss]

One must remember that this is not a Hawken "plains" rifle but one for the local trade being a classic Hawken "squirrel" rifle.
One also must remember that not all Hawkens, plains rifles or otherwise, look exactly alike or use identical components.





So while caution and even skepticism may be required. Just because the rifle does not fit some preconceived mold does not make it a fake.
Its entirely possible a customer WANTED a back action lock.
Dan

[Buck]

Well put Dan, I was lectured in a previous thread for using that same approach. Things are not always what they appear to be.
Buck

[JTR]

What is, is:

1) that Dimick style trigger guard - never seen one before - eastern and Ohio styles, yes, but not the "main competitions"

2) the key is set with the head on the right, not the left which is "typical"

3) the nose of the comb looks a little too rounded (best way I can describe it)

4) the (signature) stamp just looks a little wrong - I compared it with numerous others (which are uniformly the same) - with this the "S" (for Sam) appears to be a little wrong as does the "A" (in Hawken).

Now Sam may have had a couple of different stamps, soooooo....

Consider that a back action lock was more or less cutting edge at the time.

1) The gun is not a Plains Rifle, it's a local trade rifle, and while the trigger guard might not be correct for a Plains rifle, it fits with a local trade rifle just fine.

2) In the auction description it clearly states that the key is probably a replacement, and the wood around it restored. As such, the direction of the head of the key makes no difference as to the originality of the rifle.

3)If you look closely at the picture, the nose of the comb is either broken off, chewed off or otherwise altered from original, so is of no account as to the originality of the gun.

4)The stamped name? Even you suggest they might have had more than one stamp..... Your suggestion sounds reasonable.


Oakridge, In your opinion, what's not right, specifically? Other than 'it ain't a Hawken.'

Just curious,
John

[oakridge]

John,
The continuing discussion of this rifle made me do some additional digging, and I may be forced to "eat my words" (won't be the first time). It's apparent the auction house knows it's not a plains rifle, as the estimate indicates that. A correct Hawken plains rifle would be worth considerably more. Single-keyed, no entry pipe (ramrods enters the fore-end cap), and trigger guard with spur (unusual with scroll and single spur), and even the back-action lock (rare, but known), all pass muster for a gun made for the local trade. My main problem was with the barrel marking - I didn't think it was right. That, along with the other anomalies, made me question the entire gun.

Well, after considerable searching, I found a "S. Hawken" rifle with a stamp very similar to this one, so I have to rethink my statement. As the saying goes "never say never".

[louieparker]

Oakridge

The barrel stamp that you are comparing it to, did the N have the long leg that dropped below the rest if the name ? What did the rifle its self look like, was it a double keyed big bore gun or a light weight rifle..  The rifle on Julia's site looks very similar to the work of an unknown maker that worked around Washington or Union Missouri. Not exactly like it but more similarities to his work than the Hawken shop...Louie

[galamb]

So Louie, are you saying you think this may "not" be an S. Hawken rifle?

That's how your reply sounded...

[oakridge]

Louie,
I think it was one of the lighter weight sporting rifles. I was looking for any stamps with the gap between the period and H, and with slight gap between the W and K. The one I thought closest to this one didn't have the long leg on the N extending below the others.

Thinking further, the W on this rifle looks a lot more spread out at the top than the others. Maybe that's what caught my eye and made me doubt this stamp.

[louieparker]

No I am not saying that.  Any time you are talking about a non typical rifle there are always a lot of  unanswered questions.  But I do feel  that the maker around Washington Mo. who made unsigned guns had a hand in its creation.  Its possible he did some work for Hawken . Who Knows ?  I have seen one gun made around Washington that had a Hawken breech, butt plate and spur trigger guard. All iron, standard plains rifle parts and it was no Hawken. I would be curious to know if anyone has seen this exact barrel stamp on another rifle. Its different.

[Chuck Burrows]

Stamp on currently discussed rifle at Julia Auction - This appears have been done with individual stamps due to the varied horizontal spacing, although it appears to be aligned properly vertically.

After doing some online searching I thought at first it was a match to this copy by Art Ressell's Hawken Shoppe per mtn meeks post. This too appears to have been done with individual stamps due to the varied spacing in both horizontal and vertical directions. Note the similarity in the distance between the W and the H, but the serifs are different on most letters including the S which is more script like on Art's gun - while the S's are similar, sorry they are not all uniformly the same even on this small sample - the serifs on some are different, in particular the JC Devine gun, once belonging to James Serven. The W is a different font than on Art's gun as well. The style W on the Julia Hawken has the left inner leg attaching at the center slightly lower down on the right inner leg, plus it has a slight left serif on the center joint making it different than some other stamps that have both inner legs of the W matching at the top together as on Art's gun which also does not have a serif at the center joint of the W. Also there are are W's on other Hawkens as seen below with a cross serif at the center W and others without.
http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=32210.0


But while there are similarities in the size and spacing of the W the font is not an exact match so I gathered up as many original S Hawken stamp images as possible and there is a fair amount of variation both in font and alignment on most -

Jim Gordon book "Great Gunmakers for the Early West"� -note W's similar to Julia gun


Jim Gordon book "Great Gunmakers for the Early West"� - note W's similar to Julia gun


JC Devine Auction - a bit later Hawken than the others - note the cast buttplate with the straight return (no curve at the juncture as seen J & S rifles and earlier Sam rifles) Also note similarity to stamp on ;ate period Cowans offering below - no center serif on W


Museum of the Ozarks


Rock Island Auction


Clymer Museum Oklahoma


Accoutrement 2 -


Liveauctioneers lot 7374734


Cowans lot 821 Spencer Hawken this a later stamp than others since it was done during Gemmer's tenure as builder - note similarity to JC Devine above


Jim Gordon book "Great Gunmakers for the Early West"� - A J & S Hawken stamp with serif on center of W, perhaps this is the earlier styled W that carried over later with some variation in wher the center legs met?


While I don't have near the experience with originals as Don Stith and Louie Parker I have studying the subject since 1962 when I saw my first Hawken, a late Sam model, in  guns magazine article, by James Serven (I still have the magazine), have studied all the available literature, have been perusing the Internet for info for years, and have had the good luck to be able to examine several originals first hand. While there are differences in the stamp of the Julia rifle from some of the other stamps yet there are plenty of similarities as well (and yep the Hawken shop used different stamps. not just one or two)  so I do not see it as a glaring error.
As for the Dimick guard, why not use a copy on a Hawken if that was what the customer wanted even if he was the competition - the Hawken shop still got the sale?
As noted above the comb end appears to have been damaged and/or repaired/

With all that said and done, the bottom line is without some kind of exacting provenance, there is still the possibility it was another maker's rifle with an added S Hawken stamp to increase value or whatever. I know even as late as back in the 1970's there were a fair number of both original and Hawken shop stamps floating around. Still it's an interesting piece, albeit not a Mountain or California rifle (anybody ever seen one of the latter - an 1850's advert mentions them), which are my main interest(s), in particular J & S Mountain rifles.

[Chuck Burrows]

and trigger guard with spur (unusual with scroll and single spur

Not necessarily the late Sam full-stock in the Smithsonian has one albeit not of the Dimick style


from R. L. Wilson's book "Peacemakers"
and then there's this Sam Hawken mountain rifle (third one down) also using a Dimick style trigger guard, which was perhaps/most likely purchased from a supplier of parts such as Tryon


and while not a great image another Mtn Rifle with single spur scroll trigger guard - this one is in the Biil Cody Historical Center firerarms museum and it's in brass

Here it is on the BBHC site - much better picture
http://collections.centerofthewest.org/treasures/view/firearm_rifle_samuel_hawken_st_louis_mo_samuel_hawken_half_stock_percuss

Also on page 112 of John Baird's "Fifteen Years in the Hawken Lode" there is a different Mountain Rifle from the one above with a Dimick style guard - I'll scan and post tomorrow, it's getting late.......

so at this point I'd say all the parts fit the time and place - so we now just need to and pin down the... stamping....

[galamb]

I do appreciate the discussion - always like to pick up a few more tidbits on Hawken rifles whenever possible.

I will log this one in my spreadsheet as a (considerably) non-typical example of an S. Hawken local rifle.

While every Hawken is unique, this one just appears a little more unique than most

[realtorone]

To all but especially Dan. I think Louis Yearout had this rifle since I  knew him in the early 70's when I was at Great Falls . If its the Hawkens I'm thinking of, it seems to me Louis got it from a Great Falls Gunsmith who had a store downtown and I think his last name was Stevens. Mr Stevens collected Browning Bro. Single Shot Rifles .Dan, Don may know about this rifle.

[Chuck Burrows]

Here's the Hawken Mountain rifle from Baird's "15 Years in the Hawken Lode" pd 112 with a Dimick style TG

[galamb]

Thanks for that pic Chuck - I had never seen the Dimick style guard.

I don't particularly like that style (just personally "not appealing"), but do appreciate seeing another example.