Fitting Rifles to Users

[Mark Elliott]

The last two rifles I made,  the users complained of the combs hitting them in the cheek when they fired the rifle.    These both had Southern Classic barrels and were relatively light guns.   One of those, I brought the user into the shop and then to range and scraped a little wood off here and a little off there until it was comfortable for him to shoot.    Basically, I took 1/32" off the height of the comb and a 1/32" off each side of the comb. 

The most current one,  I have been working with him on his shooting position and hold after he talked about wanting to have the gun restocked.  Of course,  I made the gun to the dimensions (LOP, Pull, Drop, etc...) he gave me.   The most recent gun was for someone 1000 miles away whom I have never seen in person. 

Making adjustments after the gun is finished is very expensive, and I need to find a better way to get this right the first time.

I am interested in how the rest of you make sure a rifle will fit the customer.     

[Virginiarifleman]

Mark,sounds like you have a chore ahead of you. I would think that fit to an individual might also be in the style or school of the rifle they are having made. as in the different styles of a Virginia Style Rifle to a Southern Mountain. drop,cast off comb surely would be factor on these different schools I would think.

[gunmaker]

This is THE biggist problem with long distance sales.  Stock fit is of course critical, some people are happy no matter what you send them---others, well everything must be "A" number one.  I ask "if you have a gun/rifle that fits you great, trace it and send me the print".  Usually works.  Frankly if I'm making a spec. gun to sell I usually go with the dim's. off a Rem. #870.  A gun that fits a bunch a folks....I can't shoot a 4" drop and neither can most of us.     Just my thoughts, working on #11 since new year.....Tom

[jerrywh]

When a gun hits you in the cheek it is usually not enough drop. I have bent several stocks to cure this problem. Also some cast off or on is very helpful. Most customers really don't know what the right drop is for them or the pull and most of them thing don't know what cast off or pitch is. Not enough drop forces the shooter to push his cheek into the stock in order to see the sights. The same for cast off. Too much pull just makes the gun hard to hold up. Young people usually aren't effected much by too much pull. Old geezers like me are effected a lot.
 I don't take orders for guns anymore but when I did I would get them to hold or shoot one of mine and see how they liked it.  

[Chris Treichel]

A year ago or so someone posted a sheet with specific measurement details in over the back fence but I can't seem to locate it.

[Dphariss]

The last two rifles I made,  the users complained of the combs hitting them in the cheek when they fired the rifle.    These both had Southern Classic barrels and were relatively light guns.   One of those, I brought the user into the shop and then to range and scraped a little wood off here and a little off there until it was comfortable for him to shoot.    Basically, I took 1/32" off the height of the comb and a 1/32" off each side of the comb.  

The most current one,  I have been working with him on his shooting position and hold after he talked about wanting to have the gun restocked.  Of course,  I made the gun to the dimensions (LOP, Pull, Drop, etc...) he gave me.   The most recent gun was for someone 1000 miles away whom I have never seen in person.  

Making adjustments after the gun is finished is very expensive, and I need to find a better way to get this right the first time.

I am interested in how the rest of you make sure a rifle will fit the customer.      

If the comb is at an angle to the bore centerline it will cause problems. So as the caliber goes up more and more care must be taken in stock design.
Once built sometimes raising the sights 1/8" can reduce/eliminate the problem.

Dan

[James Rogers]

Many cheek bites come from a comb that is almost right but a tad low and/or comb angle relative to the bore.
A lot of great shots use a gun that is much lower in comb to really fit them. They rest the side of their face on the stock and hover over the comb. The best can utilize a great percentage of their potential in this manner but this is not what I see in high competition shooting. Keeping an eye on angle and lowering the comb a little makes it so a greater number of people can claim it is not a cheek biter.

[Mark Elliott]

When you all talk about the comb being at an angle to the bore, I am assuming you mean the angle of the vertical plane against the cheek and not the centerline of the comb or the top line of the comb?

[Captchee]

 I must agree with Jerry on this one . IMO the vast majority of folks do not or have not been taught a proper shooting stance . Those of us that were , were often taught  on guns that did not fit properly . Thus we develop a style of shooting where the shooter has to get down into the stock , where the face is low and forward .
As such if a shooter  does the same thing with a long rifle that has proper drop  and angle of the comb , they  a lot of times end up with their cheek bones   getting slammed by  a rising comb .
Where as if  the drop  and rise are correct . Their eye will align  with the sights correctly .  Thus no searching , or having to drive  the face forwards and down in order to align with the sights .
 Bad habits are hard to break . Especially when those habits were formed at a young age or trials of fire 

 I must also say that if all your customer needed was 1/32 taken from the stock , there frankly is no  measurement your going to come up with that’s going to compensate for such a minuet measurement .

 The measurement sheet that was posted was one that Steve Zihn uses .  I could be wrong but  I want to say he told me that it was derived from a system  used by Perdy or maybe Pauly .
 I started using the same system  some years ago and it for the most party works . Especially for taller folks with long pulls . Where I have ran into issues with it is when working on shorter folks with short pulls ..

[kaintuck]

mark, i DO remember one old gun-makers sizing.......he would measure the height of the chin cleft on the buyer from the floor, then make the total length of the rifle THAT length.............

marc n tomtom

[Don Getz]

Jerry....I must disagree with you on drop and cast-off.  The more drop that you have
in a stock, the more it will jump upward when fired.  To illustrate my point, make a
gun with an exaggerated drop, 12".  What will happen when you fire it?  Same thing
applies to cast off.   I am going to bring up another gun, a space-aged Lujtic trap gun.
This gun was straight, barrel and butt portion straight back to a butt pad.  It had a
raised sight ramp  and comb.  When you fired it, the recoil was straight back.  This
should bring on some interesting comments........Don

[T*O*F]

When you fired it, the recoil was straight back.

All recoil is straight back.  Do you think it turns a curve on a gun with extreme drop?

Mark,  just tell the guy it's a bicep mounted gun and minor adjustments are made by moving his arm.

[jerrywh]

 Don.
    Cast off for a right handed person can cause a gun ti kick into the face more but a small amount of cast off will help get your face off of the stock. The same goes for drop.
the gun may kick up more but if your face is not against the stock so hard it helps a lot.
  I bought a gun once that had 2 1/2" of drop and a straight stock. it was 58 cal. That gun just killed me. I gave it 3 1/2" of drop and 1/4" of cast off and lowered the comb about 1/8". I can now shoot it all day with no trouble. I did the same thing for a client and it worked out great.  So I based my conclusion on that and others. However I know that a gun with 1/2" or even 3/8" cast off will get to your cheek if you shoot heavy loads for say 50 shots. I have had a sore cheek for several days on that one. I once had a 50 cal with 3/8" cast off. I shot slugs in it for 50 shots with 115 grs of ffg. That gave me a sore jaw for about 2 weeks. You have to get your face off of the stock if you don't want to get socked. 

[flehto]

Presently I build only spec LRs, Bucks County and Lancaster. I'm fortunate that what "fits" me fits most people.....this is verified when friends visit and shoulder the LRs w/ the remark that the "sights come right in". Both of the above styles have combs w/ "reasonable drops" , but the Lancaster  was easier to ascertain dims for "no cheek slap" while the Bucks County LRs because of the curved combline took a little longer, but finally a comfortable combline was determined.

Originally a well fitting shotgun was used for comparison and actually was laid over the template and penciled in....it was remarkably true to later minor changes. Shotguns because of the fast mounting and recoil require a better fit and any "cheek slapping" whatsoever wouldn't be tolerated.

At this time, no template is used for Lancasters, but my personal LR is laid over the blank just to determine the drops. The blanks for the Bucks County LRs have an outline from a template which is oriented w/ the bbl.

My first LR had too high a comb {doesn't take much} and this was solved w/  higher sights.

Never had a complaint from buyers asre too high a comb resulting in "cheek slapping". ......Fred  

[Turtle]

 OK, maybe a dumb question. I have a NY rifle with a real sharply curved buttplate and I shoot it from my biceps. That works great for me. I was told that rifles with sharp curved buttplates were meant to be shot from the biceps. True?
                                Thanks,Turtle

[P.W.Berkuta]

This is MY position on fitting a rifle to the customer ---
The builder is fooling himself if he thinks he can "custom fit" a rifle to a customer who is not present during major portions of the stock shaping - period . Even with the customer present and he says "I like it and it fits me fine" he will change his mind later on. Do you really think that the early gun makers "custom fit" their rifles to each individual customer? Just like guns today being made by the average gun manufacturing company are being made for the "average physical build" of the people. The person adjusts to the rifle - shaving 1/32 of an inch off here or there is a waste of time.  Never promise to "custom fit" a rifle to a person who is not present for the stock shaping and if you think using a modern gun as a "fitting guide" will work - you are fooling yourself - IF it HAS worked for you count yourself very lucky - my 2 cents .

[Long Ears]

I totally disagree with P.W. if a guy pays $3500.for a custom gun to be built it should fit. I agree the over the counter guns are generic but when I have a modern shotgun built it better fit. Bob

[James Rogers]

I totally disagree with P.W. if a guy pays $3500.for a custom gun to be built it should fit. I agree the over the counter guns are generic but when I have a modern shotgun built it better fit. Bob

I would agree if the customer provided those fitting measurements. A stellar builder does not always a fitter make. Different skillset IMO.

[WadePatton]

I totally disagree with P.W. if a guy pays $3500.for a custom gun to be built it should fit. I agree the over the counter guns are generic but when I have a modern shotgun built it better fit. Bob

I too am of this opinion and have learned to fit bicycles to folks (because that matters much too).  AT this point i still need a live person to interview, observe, and measure, but most professional makers do an effective job from proper measurements/interview.  Yes it's all different, but is it not quite similar?

[WadePatton]

I totally disagree with P.W. if a guy pays $3500.for a custom gun to be built it should fit. I agree the over the counter guns are generic but when I have a modern shotgun built it better fit. Bob

I would agree if the customer provided those fitting measurements. A stellar builder does not always a fitter make. Different skillset IMO.

And that's when it's good to spend a few bucks on a fitment.  A fitter might not be the best builder?  Ideally they converge in the same joker.

[Dennis Glazener]

I totally disagree with P.W. if a guy pays $3500.for a custom gun to be built it should fit. I agree the over the counter guns are generic but when I have a modern shotgun built it better fit. Bob

I totally disagree with P.W. if a guy pays $3500.for a custom gun to be built it should fit. I agree the over the counter guns are generic but when I have a modern shotgun built it better fit. Bob

I would agree with Long Ears IF the customer had requested that it be made to fit him. But in the case of most orders a customer asks for LOP and a particular style/school, possible amount of cast that he wants. If that is the extent of his request I can not understand why it would be the builders obligation to "fix" a gun that does not fit him. I know I wouldn't even consider asking him to "fix" it unless I was willing to pay his shop rate. If fit was a concern it certainly would need to be discussed before the rifle was built.
Dennis

[James Rogers]

I totally disagree with P.W. if a guy pays $3500.for a custom gun to be built it should fit. I agree the over the counter guns are generic but when I have a modern shotgun built it better fit. Bob

I would agree if the customer provided those fitting measurements. A stellar builder does not always a fitter make. Different skillset IMO.

And that's when it's good to spend a few bucks on a fitment.  A fitter might not be the best builder?  Ideally they converge in the same joker.

Yes, ideally but not an often occurance. Add to the fact of trying to keep within a certain school or style on these types of guns and most importantly trying to use parts off the shelf....ie. buttplate that looks fine on a 13.5 pull but throws the whole thing off at 15".

[James Rogers]

Good summation Dennis

[Captchee]

 Don , I would also add that the  higher end trap guns   have not  only adjustable comb height but also adjustments  in the butt pad ,which adjusts amount of drop ,camber of the toe and even angle of butt plate   . Still others  even have adjustable  cheek pads
And 3500.00 ,  Depending on the maker , that might  just start to cover the cost of the planks to make the stock
  IMO , with a rifle , the stock should come up and the sights align with the eye , without the shooter  stepping in , leaning in  or for that mater any other contortion . In order to align their eye with the sights .
 In other words having a solid anchor of the cheek , should not mean one has to try an embed their cheek into the stock  to the point  their face flows over to the off side

[Dphariss]

When you fired it, the recoil was straight back.

All recoil is straight back.  Do you think it turns a curve on a gun with extreme drop?

Mark,  just tell the guy it's a bicep mounted gun and minor adjustments are made by moving his arm.

Well yes the gun DOES come up to some extent. Using the buttplate as a pivot.
Then if the comb is too high or angled too much the comb will have a greater or lesser impact in the cheekbone.
Thus is one is building a larger caliber rifle and making it too light as we are prone to do these days people get kicked in the face.
This rifle, even with loads that are painful to the SHOULDER, launching a 1 ounce ball at 1700+, never bites the cheek.

If the comb is angled to the bore and too high then there will be issues with larger caliber rifles. This will get worse and worse as the bore size is increased.
It will also produce significant muzzle rise even though it  has relatively little drop at the heel.
Slow motion video of recoil. This explains how important comb height  can be. Note how far back the rifle moves in relation to my head.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NnUxXub5vPU&feature=youtu.be

Dan