forsyth barrel

[eph289]

I have built a rifle with a Rice forsyth rifled .62 cal 104 twist barrel. I'm not getting the accuracy that I had hoped for. Does any one  have any experience with such barrel?
                                                                                           thanks Gene

[smylee grouch]

Why dont you tell us a little about your load such as ball size, patch material and thickness, powder type and charge, etc.

[Chris Treichel]

I really love this book.

http://books.google.com/books?id=Gm4CAAAAYAAJ&printsec=frontcover&dq=forsyth+rifle&hl=en&sa=X&ei=yhZAVOC9N7b-sASb1YLwDg&ved=0CB8Q6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false

On page 149 Forsyth discusses his load recommendations.

FYI 1 dram = 27.3 grains

[Kermit]

http://underhammers.blogspot.com/2011/09/forsyth-rifling-forgotten-magic.html

http://rjrenner.blogspot.com/p/forsyth-rifling.html

[jamesthomas]

 Looks like he has disappeared, Must have found the information he was looking for.

[eph289]

I cast my own with a soft lead and they come out .612 . I'm using .018 pillow ticking . I use cornmeal over powder. I've been charging with 2f Goex , from 80gr to 180gr. I swab my barrel every shot.
 I get a good group at 50 yd.  with any charge I put in it, but at 100yd  my group has fell apart .
 I've load sprew up and sprew down. It didn't make any difference.
 I've a 200yd range ,some shots will hit a 6 ft target and some w'ont.
 I've found information , that says I should use large loads and some says no
 I'd like to talk to someone who has built a rifle with a Rice Forsyth barrel ,62 cal 104 twist.







uthor=smylee grouch link=topic=32820.msg314641#msg314641 date=1413482767]
Why dont you tell us a little about your load such as ball size, patch material and thickness, powder type and charge, etc.
[/quote]

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

What is the cornmeal for, if I may ask?

[eph289]

the corn meal is to keep from burning the patch  Probably  don't  need it ,but I have had to use it in other rifles.
                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                         Gene

[axelp]

I own a Rice .50 cal "forsythe" inspired barrel  (.008" rifling and 1:80 twist, 38" long barrel)

I have found it to like a heavier than average powder charge, and a tight patch ball combo. my powder charge is usually around 90-95 gr. With a .495 ball and I think a pillow ticking patch with spit on the range.

For hunting I have to use a non-lead roundball so I go with a .487 ITX non lead ball with a mink oil greased heavy patch (chamois leather) to protect the bore and take up the slack.

I cannot claim any amazing pin-point accuracy but I am getting adequate accuracy for hunting.

I'd try to test some heavier charges. maybe try a card instead of cornmeal as a buffer between powder and patched ball?

[Dphariss]

I have built a rifle with a Rice forsyth rifled .62 cal 104 twist barrel. I'm not getting the accuracy that I had hoped for. Does any one  have any experience with such barrel?
                                                                                           thanks Gene

You have been better off with a 72" or 80" twist.  Or even a 66" for that matter.
104 is too slow IMO.

But lots of people get carried away when they start to consider "Forsythe" barrels.
Have you read Forsythe's book? The interior ballistics theories about slow twists giving better velocity cannot be borne out if checked over a chronograph. Reducing friction will at best give no increase in velocity and will almost surely increase velocity variations.
Also note that some makers of "Forsythe" barrels/rifles are shooting massive powder charges. Forsythe used 137 gr in his 14 bore (69 caliber) rifle. This gave him about 1600 fps and gives a nice flat trajectory to about 115-120 yards based on 140 gr in my 16 bore rifle. With a hardened ball of 15 gauge Forsythe stated it would shoot through an Indian Elephants head. So when I read of people shooting far more powder than this through a 62 cal "Forsythe" rifle I have to wonder why.

Dan

[Daryl]

As Dan says - Forsyths loads of 4 1/2 (122gr.) or even 5 drams(136gr.) using a hardened ball, in Samuel Baker's own words,  "will shoot through and through an elephant's head"(Indian Elephant, of course).  That was for a .69 which is 14 bore,  not a .62 which is just a little over 20 bore.

Just because I wanted to achieve what I figured his velocities at, I used 6 drams in my own .69 (14 bore).  I did test higher, and although accuracy remained, the recoil brought me back to 6 drams.
My rifle, with open express-type sights, made many 5 shot groups at 100 meters, running 1" to 1 1/2" centre to centre - it shot like a modern scoped rifle. It has a 66" twist and a choked GRRW barrel.
 
I use a very tight ball and patch combination. With pure lead balls a .682" ball (.684" mould) with a .030" (crushed AHAP - between the tines of my dial calipers) .025" crushed in a mic's anvil) yes- I use a short starter with a nicely crowned muzzle. THAT is vitally important- a machine cut is too sharp for this load and will cut the patch. Emery and your thumb will round the corners and make a nice smooth 'drawing' angle for the patch and ball to transform into the bore.  With hardened balls, I use a 15 bore ball at ,675", along with the same patch. It goes in and down about the same and gives almost the same degree of accuracy.



AHAP = as hard as possible

That little bit of rod wear you see in the groove at 11:30 o'clock, does not seem to hurt the accuracy one bit - yet.

[rhbrink]

Ha! I was looking at that looks like some rod wear on the lands at 10:00 and 2:00 too! It will some day then cut off a bit of the barrel and re-crown should be go to go again for a long time.

RB

[Dphariss]

Years ago I ran his measured trajectorys through a ballistics program and it gave me 1600 fps +- .  My flintlock 67 caliber (.662, 16 to the pound) give 1600 with 140 gr of FF Swiss. Forsythe used "Halls #2" which from the British standard would have been similar to FFF Swiss. FFF Swiss is #2 IIRC by the European standard.
But Forsythe was shooting percussion and 4" less barrel I believe.

Dan

[eph289]

  I Have Forsyth's book down loaded I found it a bit difficult reading ,so I quit the reading and went to shooting. I still have it on my favorites, sooo ! I guess I'll go back and do some reading. I do appreciate all yous guys are are telling me. I'm still hoping someone with the same barrel and twist ,will share their experience.


                                                            Gene

[Daryl]

I have read "the book" many times. It took me perhaps 3 reads to understand about everthing he was saying. Some of it is mid 1800's hogwash but not much of it.
I figured 1,550fps, which is what I was getting with 165gr. of 2F GOEX in 1986.  My POI is the same today, with 140gr. 2F GOEX. I have not tried it with Swiss, but I will at some point.

The black or dark marks in the middle of the grooves of the muzzle are not rod wear, but are left from the emery crowning method I used - the end of my rather large thumb. They are in every groove, evenly arranged and spaced.

As this rifle is stiff giving me excellent accuracy at 200yards, there is no reason to cut and re-crown it.  Every land has a bit of wear as well, but that also is minimal and does not seem to effect accuracy. This is still an amazing rifle, held here by my very close friend, Brad Hall, now hunting  moose in heavenly willow bush - one can hope.

 This rifle was inspired by Forsyth's book in 1986. The only barrel we could find in 14 bore at that time, however, was a GRRW with a 66" twist. The way it shoots, I am quite happy we used it.

[SuperCracker]

I have a Rice Forsyth in a blank but haven't started building it yet. 

When I spoke to Jason about his experiments he indicated that he ended up north of 200gr of FF before it either became unmanageable or inaccurate and during the build up to that level wouldn't even begin to behave with less than 150gr.

[Daryl]

In the 14 bore (.69") - at 200gr. 2F - in the late 80's using GOEX, I recorded 1,700fps.  While doing this chronographing at the jail range, I accidentally dumped in a double charge of my 'hunting' load of 165gr. (1,550fps), which of course was 330gr. with a single ball and that one, also over the screens, gave me a whopping 1,770fps, but did lift me off the chair and taught me to be more careful - that one hurt a bit.

That was the same day, using a single patch and 3 drams of 3F GOEX (1,225fps), I shot a 5 shot group at 50yards measuring 1 1/8", the patch  collected after each shot, then spit on it to relube it for every shot of the group.  The group was shot sitting at a table using sand bags as a rest,  without wiping between shots.

 

[sydney]

Hi--I have never seen the following but would like to
     Many 1" groups
     5 shots
     .69 cal
      6 drams
      100 meters
      open sights
       
      Sydney

[jamesthomas]

Hi--I have never seen the following but would like to
     Many 1" groups
     5 shots
     .69 cal
      6 drams
      100 meters
      open sights
       
      Sydney

 I would too, except make it .40 cal. and say 70grns. of Goex 3fff. 

[Dphariss]

I have a Rice Forsyth in a blank but haven't started building it yet. 

When I spoke to Jason about his experiments he indicated that he ended up north of 200gr of FF before it either became unmanageable or inaccurate and during the build up to that level wouldn't even begin to behave with less than 150gr.

I would love to see his velocity increase figures from 120 gr to 200.

This is what happens when people do things they do not understand.
My 16 bore rifle starts to show a reduction in velocity for grain of powder increase at about 120 and it have a Nock breech which increases velocity over other FL breech designs. The larger bores are also  more efficient so a 20 bore will likely need a little more powder than a16 or 14 bore. But not 150 grains to start getting accuracy.

Dan

[Daryl]

Hi--I have never seen the following but would like to
     Many 1" groups
     5 shots
     .69 cal
      6 drams
      100 meters
      open sights
        
      Sydney

You would have had to come out to the range to see it, Barry, instead of playing with the******* in the Trap section every Sunday. To see those targets today - you will have to approach the widow of the man holding my rifle and ask her to find them. Good luck luck with that!
I do not have to prove anything to you - I only prove to those I respect.

[jamesthomas]

 Mr. DPharIss, in using these high charges shouldn't the length of your barrel come into play? I mean if you have a 34 inch barrel isn't there a point of diminishing returns? Is a 34 inch barrel long enough to burn 150+ grains efficiently? if not, what length of barrel would you need? Doesn't it comes to a point where (some?) (A lot?) of the powder charge is burning outside of the barrel?.

[sydney]

AH--how quickly we resort to name calling and foul language
      So targets are no available-how would guess ??
      Maybe in the future if targets were posted along with claims
        and statements of good groups it would help us "doubting Thomas s"
       As you know some of the finest shooting is done on a keyboard
          Sydney

[Dennis Glazener]

OK enough! Topic is now locked.
Dennis