Wahkon bay AF

[FALout]

I thought I would add some steel to a bottle of Wahkon bay AF since in some of my searches, it was mentioned that the acid needs to be "spent".  Well it's been eating away pretty good, but now the solution looks like muddy, rusty water.  Is it still okay and just a matter of time?  Still seems to be working on the second small bolt I added yesterday, so apparently not spent yet.  I've had this bottle of AF for at least six years, so was surprised at the acidity.  I've always like the color I've achieved with Wahkon bay so would like to stick with it.  Any suggestions?

[tallbear]

Once the acid is completely spent I would let it sit for a while(I usually let it sit for a month) before using.Pictured below are my last two batches of aqua fortis after sitting two weeks or so.Notice the sediment in the bottom of the jar.

Mitch

[Tom Cooper]

Does it look like this ?


Mine came out looking like this.

[FALout]

Yes Tom, that is like what I have right now.  So hope is not lost just yet.

[Dennis Glazener]

Once the acid is completely spent I would let it sit for a while(I usually let it sit for a month) before using.Pictured below are my last two batches of aqua fortis after sitting two weeks or so.Notice the sediment in the bottom of the jar.

Mitch

Mitch,
I have some that has a good inch of sediment in the bottom. Kinda hard to use without stirring it up. I have thought about straining it out to prevent the sediment from getting into the applicator. Has anyone done this, if so what did you use? The reason I ask is I don't want to use something that will filter out the iron oxide (?) that does the coloring on the wood.
Dennis

[tallbear]

Dennis

When I make a batch I make it in a Pyrex measuring cup.Once the reaction has stopped to my satisfaction I strain it through a piece of cheesecloth to remove most of the sludge when I transfer it into the mason jar.The solution is still cloudy but clarifies in time leaving a little sediment in the bottom which I leave and use later as a pigment.Once in the mason jar I let it sit for a month or so before using.

Mitch

[E.vonAschwege]

I have several batches in jars and all have different color and consistency.  My first batch I ever made I got too excited by the reaction and added more and more iron... I ended up with about 1/2 a jar full of sludge.  I actually still use that sludge/stain on certain things, and the pigment alone is useful as well (when dried and ground up).  Subsequent batches I added iron more slowly and came away with stain more like what Mitch is showing - just a little sediment at the bottom that is of no concern. 

Several years ago I had a bottle of Wahkon Bay before I started making my own.  I only stained one rifle with it before I decided it was too dark for my tastes.  I added different amounts of iron to it to see what would happen and shared my results here: http://americanlongrifles.org/old_board/index.php?topic=9786.0 it's the old board, so you'll have to log in with your username and password.  As you can see, different amounts of iron and acid will change how the stain reacts with the wood. 

Long story short, don't worry too much about sediment - most of it will settle out and leave a clear stain.  Even the sludge will eventually settle and leave a nice somewhat weak amber stain on top.  Lastly, watch the lids on your mason jars, I've had a few rust right through even on well-spent stain  . 
-Eric

[Kenny]

Eric,
i can't seem to log into the old site. maybe because i never was a member there?? anyway, my question is, by adding iron to wahkon bay AF does it make it stain a lighter color?

thanks,
Kenny

[Joe S]

The reason I ask is I don't want to use something that will filter out the iron oxide (?) that does the coloring on the wood.

You don't need to worry about that Dennis.  The iron oxide is in solution, which means that it has individual molecules floating around.  It is not possible to filter those out.

[StevenV]

I have just finished making two batches of nitric acid stain. My observations are: once solution is done dissolving metal don't keep adding metal and hope for "better" stain. This just increases "sludge" That was the problem with my first batch. The first batch I added "lots" of metal at once. Don't do this I believe a little at a  time is better. The second batch only got a 1/4 teaspoon of metal chips every 24 hours , this works better. Also if metal is rusty,  wire brush rust off this helps reduce the "sluge".The second batch I added metal every 24 hrs. and when I came back and metal was gone I added more. When I came back and the metal was still visible in solution I stopped adding and filtered stain through a paper coffee purculator filter. This is sludge free and has been sitting outside for  almost a month now. I have tried both batches on wood and like the results. My ratio is 4 parts water to 1 part nitric. I use 12oz. water chilled and add 3 ounces of nitric to it, then start adding metal. I want to try and vary the color(darkness) by diluting stain. Does anybody have experience with this will it lighten the finished stock. I  currently vary darkness of stock by the amount of heat I add. I have found lesser heat yields a bit lighter stock and more heat yields a darker stock. I will try and post some pics tommrrow of both batches I think this will help with visualizing this "sludge" issue and show the seperation that occurs when allowed to settle.

[rich pierce]

Adding some nitric acid and water in the original proportion usually will make the sludge go away.  Doesn't take much, either.

[FALout]

I will admit I didn't know exactly what I was doing.  At first I added a small bolt which the acid ate up quickly, container felt warm.  I then added another piece of metal, which in retrospect was too much. I'm guessing the sluge is actually rust.  I'll let this sit for a while.

[c deperro]

Tom   I had that problem years ago. At the time I used modern steel wool which I added to my 50/50 water and nitric acid mixture. The result was a brown mud that does not work well for a gun stain. I think the sludge resulted from either adding the iron to quickly or oil on the steel wool. Today I use a 50/50 water nitric mixture to which I one oil free nail . After 20 min I check it. If the nail is gone I add another one . I repeat the process until it wont eat any more. The end result is a clear brownish red liquid . Another tip . Read the Jim Kibler post on tanic acid to bring out curl.

[Angus]

For those who are making home brew, are you adding in steel or iron?
And is there a difference in the outcome when applied?

I am going to guess you guys are also removing any zinc or galvanized products from the recipe.

Tall bear, your jars look like the ice tea my mom drinks everyday. Pretty stout stuff!

[tallbear]

Angus

I add different things to different batches.Each different batch gives me a different final color.If you notice the batches I posted are different colors everything is the same about the batch except the iron source .In the one on the left I added wrought iron taken from a 1700's house ,in the one on the right I added a piece of "Pure Iron" which is a modern wrought iron substitute that was imported from Europe a few years ago.I will sometimes make a batch using mild steel.Each one of the different mixes colors the wood to a slightly different color  .I keep about six different mixes on hand at any one time which gives me many different color choices.

Mitch

[SuperCracker]

What's a good source for the NA?  Preferably powder.


Just used up the last of my store bought AF and want to try brewing my own for the next project.

[StevenV]

the two small jars were started on Sept.26th you see the "Sludge" kept adding iron chips even after acid was spent. I believe this is the reason for sludge. Second batch started on Oct.6th one jar with the same wrought iron chips source used in first batch (jar closest to small jars) and the other jar I used cut nails(removed rust with wire wheel brush) from an old farm house on the farm.    Steve

[Mad Monk]

I want to try and vary the color(darkness) by diluting stain. Does anybody have experience with this will it lighten the finished stock. I  currently vary darkness of stock by the amount of heat I add. I have found lesser heat yields a bit lighter stock and more heat yields a darker stock.

If you dilute the stain solution you get less iron in and on the wood as coloring matter once it is converted to iron oxide.  Generally.  Diluting the stain will give you lighter colors.

The form of heat and the amount of heat you use after staining the stock plays a part in the color(s) formed.

If you want to look at this in another way take some of the yellow sludge.  Heat it gently over a period of time and watch the color change.
Part of the color of the iron oxide stain relates to the amount of water tied to each molecule of iron oxide.  The yellow iron oxide molecules have several molecules of water attached.  If you heat it above the boiling point of water you begin to drive off the water and the color will change.
This is seen in naturally occurring iron oxides used as pigments in paints and plastics.  Here in Berks county we have a very large bed of yellow ocher clay that extends over into New Jersey.  If you heat that yellow ocher you get an orange color known as burnt ocher.  If you take raw umber and heat it to drive off the water you get "burnt umber" pigment.

Mad Monk

[Dphariss]

For those who are making home brew, are you adding in steel or iron?
And is there a difference in the outcome when applied?

I am going to guess you guys are also removing any zinc or galvanized products from the recipe.

Tall bear, your jars look like the ice tea my mom drinks everyday. Pretty stout stuff!

Modern nails or steel wool or iron from an old wagon tire the stain is the same. Its the iron that does the staining the carbon level of the marterial used to put iron into solution makes no difference.

Dan

[Tom Cooper]

I have no issues with the way my wahkon bay af turned out, the wood piece in my above post was treated with my sludge mixture and blushed accordingly, I thought it came out ok for its intended purpose.

Believe it or not I ordered the crystals from the science store  and made a mixture using denatured alcohol and there is sludge in that jar as well, I did not add any metal to that one, also found out that even though you are using the crystals it is best to neutralize the solution  or it will react with the barrel etc. at least it did on the rifle stock I used it on.