N-SSA shoot has original Colt destroyed

[valongrifles]

I saw a picture of a destroyed original Colt Carbine that suffered catastrophic failure at the recent N-SSA shoot at Fort Shenandoah. Apparently a guy had mistakenly assumed his powder measure contained BLACK; it didn't, it was SMOKELESS. Check those measures and keep your powder separate. No one suffered more than scratches; could have been much worse, even fatal. Anyone have the pictures to share of the the pieces found?

[Hungry Horse]

 Ya can't fix stupid. There is no reason to use an antique for re-enacting. JMO.

                 Hungry Horse

[jamesthomas]

I saw a picture of a destroyed original Colt Carbine that suffered catastrophic failure at the recent N-SSA shoot at Fort Shenandoah. Apparently a guy had mistakenly assumed his powder measure contained BLACK; it didn't, it was SMOKELESS. Check those measures and keep your powder separate. No one suffered more than scratches; could have been much worse, even fatal. Anyone have the pictures to share of the the pieces found?

 Yea, that will get you every time, "Assuming" . You all know the rest.

[TPH]

Ya can't fix stupid. There is no reason to use an antique for re-enacting. JMO.

                 Hungry Horse

I have to agree with your first statement on fixing stupid, you can't do it. But there is a lot of misinformation in the original post in this thread, it was an original Colt Special Model M1861 Rifle Musket, not a carbine for one thing. Cartridges (similar to original cartridges) are loaded in advance to approaching the competion line, weapons are not loaded from a horn or can, so a measure is not used on the line. The shooter obviously had smokeless in his possesion and got rushed when he filled his modern reloading tool at his work bench at home. That is STUPID.

Also, keep in mind that the N-SSA is not a reenacting organization, they are shooters and a very large group of competitive shooters as well with many championship shooters in it's membership. They were organized in the 1950s - long before reproduction arms were available - and have been competing locally, regionally and nationally as well as having many of their shooters participate in international competitions as well. It is not uncommon for an N-SSA shooter to burn 50 pound of powder a year with practice and competition. They, in general, know what they are doing. There national competition shoots at Ft. Shenandoah near Winchester Virginia very often dwarf Friendship.

For more information, see:

http://www.n-ssa.org/index.php

Competition in rifles, rifle muskets, rifled muskets, smoothbore muskets, carbines, revolvers and artillery all done with live ammunition. Most competitors still use immaculately maintained original firearms, including artillery. Please realize, I'm not excusing the idiot who blew up the original Special M1861 Rifled Musket, he obviously pulled areal boner and he should have known better, he was not a beginner. Always pay attention to what you are doing, no matter your experience.

[mr. no gold]

Gee, wish I had the wherewithall to blow up an original, 5K to 8K Colt gun. Not too many around as it is, but the collectors of such will be happy because the value of their investment arms will go a bit higher.
It's too bad that the mentally challenged take highly valuable and sometimes historic arms and destroy them by insisting on shooting them. And, it could become terminal stupidity as the explosion could have killed, or maimed someone else.
They lucked out this time. One further thought, I wouldn't belong to any organization that encouraged, or allowed members to shoot originals, but that is my preference.
Dick

[bob in the woods]

Having participated in the long range [ 1000 yard] matches , you may find it interesting that almost all of the muzzleloading bullet guns used by the English in the competition were originals.  There were a few Hi Walls and other original SSCR in use as well.   

[valongrifles]

As to use of valuable originals, I keep in mind the original longrifles used during the 50's-60's. And some are still in use. When you think about it, it had nothing to do with the original Colt, it was the propellant therein.

[Candle Snuffer]

I would not hesitate to use an original if it is deemed safe.  There's no reason not to IMHO.  As has been said, it was the smokeless propellant that destroyed the rifle, just as it would have done to a new made one.

[Kermit]

I figure that the fella who came up with the money to buy an item can make the choice whether to use it, display it, or lock it up. I'm thinking about cars, motorcycles, airplanes, watches, hand tools, comic books, Barbie dolls.............

[mr. no gold]

It is true that many early shooters used original guns and they mostly knew how to take care of them. But, today's restorers go to great lengths to undo the attempts of the old guys to make an old gun shoot. Did I mention expensive? Without going into a long "Who struck John" on this, I did shoot one of my Ky rifles in the 1950s and immediately ceased when a friend and I had been out shooting and had a horrendous car wreck on the way home. The car, a cherry 1948 Chevy 4 door sedan was totaled, my friend the driver was pretty well beaten  up, and I took my licks, as well. The rifle was in the back seat and came through it just okay. Fast forward, it is a Michael Sell, Kentucky made piece and it is shown in Shelby Gallien's book on Kentucky made guns. A very rare item. Now, if things had gone badly, the rifle would have been lost and its contribution to the data base would not have been made. How many times have you all parroted the words "We are only caretakers of these old guns for future owners?" Take them out use them, you have the right of ownership, as Kermit says, but when you trash them it's your tough luck. No sympathy here! I hope that few to none of you own any good originals though.
Dick

[Bob Roller]

These antique English 1000 yard rifles usually are in fine condition and were of vastly superior materials and workmanship to the American long rifle.It was these guns,my own and those of others that were an inspiration to make the best locks I can.There is little about the locks on the American rifles of any period that I would want to try to replicate.
   About smokeless powder.Years ago while at Friendship there were several of us talking out by the main gate and we heard along with everyone else a thunderous explosion.
We knew it was nothing good had happened.It was an explosion from an inverted load.
The man had been loading a few grains of smokeless next to the "nipple"and a bigger load of black powder on top of that smokeless primer.He was distracted and reversed the sequence,big smokeless and liitle black and then KABOOM.I don't think anyone was hurt but it brought about a rule of NO SMOKELESS POWDER allowed on the range during sanctioned competitions.Good ide.There is no need for IMR powders at such an event.

Bob Roller

[Daryl]

Taylor uses a Manton 15 bore SxS as well as an original English cap-lock rook rifle we re-lined with a Bauska .36 tube - shoots great, BTW. NProblem using originals in good condition.

We've used or have shot original SxS & SS muzzleloading caplock shotguns since we tested Jimmy Baine's (game-warden's son) originals back in Ontario in the early 60's.  Jimmy used to shoot marbles out of the 16 bore guns through the walls of their old barn, just because, - they were all  guns made in England or Ontario, through the mid 1830's's to 1860 or even 1870, I'd expect.

[frogwalking]

When I was a teenager, we shot original SXS shotguns on a regular basis.  I had a 12 gauge given to me, and bought a 10 gauge for $12.00. 

[D. Buck Stopshere]

I have the photos on this laptop sent to me by one who was there.

Trying to find the directions to post photos.

 Do I need Photobucket or can I take them right from this computer?

[Dennis Glazener]

Look in the tutorial forum for instructions on posting photos but if I remember correctly this was a revolver and ALR forum is restricted to muzzleloading side-lock guns. See our rules here: http://americanlongrifles.org/american-longrifles-privacy-policy-2.htm?action=recent
Dennis

[D. Buck Stopshere]

Trust me Dennis, its a rifle.

If its not, as you see it, feel free to delete my "Photos" post.  Should be ready by 9PM.

After you "called me on the carpet" a while back about discussing "Friendship zip guns", I been behaving'.

Buck Buchanan

[valongrifles]

As TPH stated, it was a musket; my original post was in error as to model of Colt. It appeared the breach plug was the only intact piece.

[D. Buck Stopshere]

These photos were sent to me by a member of the  Inspector General Staff of the N-SSA just recently as an educational "pass it along" suggestion.

Thanks, Mike.






Dennis,

You might have been thinking revolver when the word "Colt" entered in.

Hope this helps.

Buck Buchanan

[whitebear]

Well that's one way to see how clean your breechplug is.  I have an original Harper's Ferry 1816, sadly converted to percussion, that I have shot and will probably will shoot again.  But I have other new muzzleloading guns that I shoot regularly.  So I don't need to use the original unless I just want to.

[TPH]

As TPH stated, it was a musket.....

Well, to use the correct period terminology, it was a rifle musket.....

As far as expense, the M1861 Special Model rifle muskets usually sell for around $2,500 to $3,000 in the condition this one was in before the moron dropped smokeless down the barrel. Now, it appears to be a good source of parts; butt plate, trigger guard, bands and springs, forearms and (hopefully) lock, maybe even the ramrod is still useable.

As far as shooting the originals, no harm at all, the vast majority of the N-SSA shooters care for their competition firearms at least as well as they care for their children, sometimes even better. I've seen originals being fired by middle-aged competitors that their fathers used in N-SSA competition back in the 1950s and still look and are quite collectable.

[JTR]

A little gluing, welding and grinding, and it'll be good a new,,,,,  

The bozo that did this should go back to pop guns and quit drinking before he hurts someone,,,

John

[jamesthomas]

These photos were sent to me by a member of the  Inspector General Staff of the N-SSA just recently as an educational "pass it along" suggestion.

Thanks, Mike.






Dennis,

You might have been thinking revolver when the word "Colt" entered in.

Hope this helps.

Buck Buchanan

 From what I understand on another forum, the guy was using a automatic reloader, one of those progressonal (sp) things and thought he had emptied it of Smokeless but apparently he forgot about the  chamber that holds the next charge, so when he went to loading black powder he still had a small (15 grains?) charge that got loaded in his cartridge.

[mr. no gold]

A really nice Colt CW rifled musket, and there are many of these; probably still worth 3k in its prior condition. Now, don't know. It is quite restorable and will look just as good as before, but as a heavily restored military rifle. I don't collect military arms, but understand that they look askance at restoration.
Given the popular rationale for shooting the old ones, perhaps the owner of the lance might want to consider taking it buffalo hunting, as long as he doesn't do harm to it. And the addition of some fresh blood and gore on it will just add more history to it.
Dick

[Daryl]

mistakenly assumed his powder measure contained BLACK; it didn't, it was SMOKELESS.

Twice in the last 20 years, I have been given a pound of smokeless powder, by a guy who was sold them as being Black Powder. One was IMR3031 and the other was IMR4227.

The 3031 is a rifle powder, generally for moderate to smaller cases but is also used in large bore straight walled cases like the .45/70.

The second was a pistol/small rifle powder. It is very slow burning in handguns but so fast burning in rifles, any ctg. larger than about a .22 Hornet is too large for this powder- it could be quite dangerous unless you know what you are doing.

For the mentally handicapped (must have been) individual in the store to sell smokeless as black - well, I've got nothing to say - he's an idiot and almost caused 2 catastrophic accidents, just like the one pictured in this thread.

Fortunately, both guys realized that the powder they had did not 'read' on the can like the GOEX can's they had purchased previously - the words "smokeless powder" on the can did not sound like real black powder to them - good thing.

[Daryl]

If the gun was originally made as a rifle, it is a rifle, not a rifled musket.

After the US adopted the "Minnie Ball" & the caliber of .58 as it's issue rifle and projectile, it 'went' fort to fort collecting up all the .69 smoothbores that had ENOUGH barrel left for rifling, most were the 1822 and maybe 1829(or 24's?) musket's I think, along with the newer 1842 .69 muskets then sent them back to Harper's Ferry and Springfield for rifling.

 Thus, the "rifled musket" was born. If the Colt noted, was a smoothbore previously, then 'rifled' under that contract, is/rather was indeed a rifled musket.  Usually guns made as rifles were given a year designation and were simply rifles.

 That is how I understand that terminology. Sounds right as well.

The rifled muskets used the 730gr. hollow based 'ball' along with 70gr. of powder in the issue ctg.  Some complained about the recoil, however the 'rifled' .69's usually outshout the .58's. There were not many of the .54's, seems to me, or maybe the .54's suitable were re-bored to .58- rifled, of course? I have this mould, now made by Lyman, true to shape and weight in pure lead and it is indeed, a brute to shoot.