1/2 " groups with a ml rifle

[smokinbuck]

We have a fellow in our club that shot a 50XXXXX at Friendship, offhand with a flintlock. That's now on his license plate!
Mark

[dagner]

 saw 10 shot groups shot a 60 yards be Griffith -eddington -grimm- krumme myself that were 60 cal hole.this was using chunk guns with crude sights.their are  world recods  in official matches where the total 10 shot match string is 2.4 inchs   2.47   2.5 inches  2.57     .yes old round ball muzzle loaders can be very accurate .
 look at the scores at the 50 and 100 yard round ball berch rest at friendship  50 5x at both yardages.neal shot a 49 at 200

[Frizzen]

And we won't even get into the 100 yard pistol matches at Friendship.

[Frizzen]

Bob, I'm from the old 600 yd outhouse Elmer Keith days myself.

[sydney]

Hi-it appears that smaller groups are possibly that I realized
     I would like to know how big the 10 ring and X ring are
      on a 100 yard target ??
        Thanks for all the posts
           Sydney

[snapper]

you want a half inch group with a ml, here you go.  It was a inline with a leupold 14 power scope.  .45 cal barrel, 500 grain hollow point.

Now to get back to traditional rifles.  Most rifles will never shoot even a MOA at 100 yards.  You can not simply take a 50 yard target and double that group size thinking you can shoot that at 100 yards.  It just don't happen.  

With my traditional English rifles I can shoot a sub or right at MOA at 100 yards.  I have never shot a 5 inch group at 500 yards, or a 10" group at 1,000 yards.

[snapper]

I should mention that the inline was a custom job by my buddy Rick Weber.  Took a GM .45 barrel and machined it to fit the pieces and parts of a TC.

Fleener

[Daryl]

Thanks Taylor.
Trying to be civil here, sometimes it's difficult - pain does that to me.
Fella's, you have to know "sydney" better - he welcomes someone to attempt to prove" his opinion" is wrong, until they do offer that which he seems to seek - then he refuses to acknowledge that "his opinion" might be wrong.  It happens on the nitroexpress forum as well. This forum, this topic, is no different.   Ask him how many shots he's actually fired from a muzzleloading rifle - with any sight.

TOF - a 1/2" hole in a target is NOT a 1/2" group - a group requires more than 1 shot - ie: GROUP - more than 1.  Groups are measured Centre to Centre of the two farthest distanced shots in the group.  That is the group's measure.
I guess Taylor's and my 2 1/2" groups at 200yards are also not possible - well, perhaps you need more practice - with a muzzleloader.

I will totally agree with your statement, sydney, that the average shooter cannot shoot a 1" or 1 1/2" group at 100yards with open sights.   One gun rag many years ago, noted that about 4" was what the "average" shooter could do with open sights. I think they were referring to modern rifles with modern coarse sights VERY close together, not rifles with fairly long barrels and good sights.

The open sights I use on that 9 1/2 pound rifle really shot well for me, for many years.  I actually practiced with it all one winter, just a few winters ago. I used it in 5 matches at Hefley Creek that August and won 5 first places.  I'm not bragging - please don't think that - what happened is fact, pure and simple- THAT is an amazing rifle that is easy to shoot well, IF you can soak up a bit of recoil. According to my program, the recoil of it's accuracy load was around 64 FPE. The recoil speed is slow, but the gun does move a bit- moves you too- but- it shoots.

[Daryl]

Hi- The above targets a truly world class shooting but there was no mention of
        the rifle used or sights--chunk gun are also not the type of rifle you would go hunting with or a trail walk
       Its very hard to tell but even the above targets might not make a 1/2
          group if shot at 100 yrds
           Sydney
         
     

is it now a 1/2" group?

[T*O*F]

TOF - a 1/2" hole in a target is NOT a 1/2" group - a group requires more than 1 shot - ie: GROUP - more than 1.  Groups are measured Centre to Centre of the two farthest distanced shots in the group.  That is the group's measure.

Daryl,
Sometimes satire is lost on all but the most intelligent members of a group.

[smokinbuck]

If one shot made a group then I have shot many 1/2" groups with my .50. Someday I might get around to firing the second and third shots. LOL
Mark

[sydney]

Hi Daryl--I have no idea if  it s a 1/2" group as i can t measure it
              Also it s at 50 yards and no mention of rifle or sights ect
              You have been quite on this issue-whats your opinion on
               this subject
                  Sydney
       

[Hawken62_flint]

Sydney, calculations and everything else aside--I believe one of your initial statements was that a ML barrel was not capable of 1/2" groups--not sure exactly sure where that information comes from. But here is a fact--my Hawken .62 caliber flint rifle with an Ed Rayl barrel shot a one hole 3-shot group from the bench at 25 yards and that group measured .72 inches at the widest part, and these were the first 3 shots fired from that rifle.  I suspect that it will only get better and I know that 25 yards is not the same as 100, but I suspect that it will be possible to shoot a one hole group at 100 also.  Oh, and yes, it will never shoot a 1/2 inch group, since I am shooting a .610 ball.

[Kermit]

Some are missing the distinction between a 1/2" group and a 1/2" hole.

[sydney]

Hi Daryl---  O K  I will settle for sub moa  100 yrd  5 shots
                   which you have claimed on several sites
                   As I have asked several times before please post targets
                      Sydney                 

[Frizzen]

I don't really think some of you know how to measure group size. The size of the hole has nothing to
do with it!

[Daryl]

Exactly!

[hanshi]

I don't really think some of you know how to measure group size. The size of the hole has nothing to
do with it!

I concur!

[Daryl]

I can understand why you would not know what the size of bulls-eyes are on common targets.  One would actually have to shoot at a range with a rifle to know that.  I'll give a hint- if 2 .5 bullets are touching, those 2 bullets comprise a C to C group of less than 1/2", as those balls will not make a full 1/2"hole. It will be close, but that only counts in horseshoes, hand grenades and tit fights, not in group measurement.

Here is a 6 shot group that measures around .375" - that's 3/8", in case you didn't know.  It was fired at 100 meters with a modern rifle.  I post this just so you know what an under 1" group looks like.  What is your opinion on what size a guy has to hold, to shoot a 3/8" group. I also have groups under 1/4"- wanna see them too?  The bottom group in the picture is the target that came with the rifle.

As I noted in previous posts in this forum, Brad had all my targets form the .69, from when he owned it for a while.  As you well know, he died and my targets are in his 'stuff' somewhere. That is why you are demanding them here - you already know I no longer have them.



 BTW- I have NEVER said I've shot under in inch with my .69 at 100yards or meters. I have however shot under 1/2" at 50 yards - piece of cake with accurate rifles. 
 
 

[JTR]

  I'll get the popcorn! 

John

[nosrettap1958]

"Sergeant, what is the effective range of this weapon?"

"A lot farther than the operator's effective range, private."  

[sydney]

Hi Daryl--Please don t resort to personal attacks--I must mention your claim
              on Nitro Express and I quote on 25/10 14  "1/2 groups time and time again using a 45-3 1/4  "  Personal insults, modern groups,5 1 st place in events
with no boosting none of this supports your claims of  small 100 yrds groups
              Just post some decent targets and I will go away quietly
               Sydney
               

[Daryl]

Yeah - that was Taylor shooting those groups with his .45 3-1/4" - and edited by Dennis

[Topknot]

Bless their hearts, some people just dont have a clue....... Daryl, keep up the good work. I personally have learned alot from you.

                                                                      topknot

[dagner]

Bob, I'm from the old 600 yd outhouse Elmer Keith days myself.old usmc still  hold few 500 & 1000 yard records watched those guys shoot pistols at friendship .I could not beat them with a rifle offhand. it is fun to watch world class shooter in action.