Author Topic: L&R Late English Lock  (Read 11897 times)

Offline WKevinD

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L&R Late English Lock
« on: November 06, 2014, 04:26:53 PM »
Anybody have experience with the L&R Late English lock? I usually use Chambers Late Ketland for this size lock but Barbi said they are about three weeks out.
Any positives or negatives with the L&R? Any other similar sized lock to recommend?
I'm not trying to slam any manufacturer just trying to decide which way to go.
Kevin
PEACE is that glorious moment in history when everyone stands around reloading.  Thomas Jefferson

Hemo

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Re: L&R Late English Lock
« Reply #1 on: November 06, 2014, 05:09:05 PM »
I just ordered a Chambers late Ketland through Track of the Wolf and got it in about three days. They may still have some in stock.

Gregg

Offline Nate McKenzie

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Re: L&R Late English Lock
« Reply #2 on: November 06, 2014, 05:18:14 PM »
Its well worth the wait!

Offline Herb

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Re: L&R Late English Lock
« Reply #3 on: November 06, 2014, 05:37:26 PM »
I built two fullstock flint Hawkens with the L&R Late English lock.  Used to be called a Manton-Ashmore, I think.  I like it.  One would go a hundred hammerfalls on a flint.  In fact, I used it for my .58 flint halfstock plains rifle, posted in black powder shooting.  I will use it again for my next fullstock flint Hawken.  I also posted about it here in Gun Building, down about five pages.
« Last Edit: November 06, 2014, 05:41:25 PM by Herb »
Herb

Offline Mike Brooks

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Re: L&R Late English Lock
« Reply #4 on: November 06, 2014, 07:35:19 PM »
I quit using L&R locks years ago.  I have few problems with locks by Chambers and RE Davis for the same price.   Not a slam, just reviewing my 34 years of experience.

« Last Edit: November 07, 2014, 01:01:24 AM by EvonAschwege »
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Offline gunmaker

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Re: L&R Late English Lock
« Reply #5 on: November 06, 2014, 07:38:13 PM »
I have one on a .54 rifle--since 1987--never been a problem, fast and good on rocks.  But thats just one lock...Tom

Offline Mike Brooks

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Re: L&R Late English Lock
« Reply #6 on: November 06, 2014, 07:47:37 PM »
I have one on a .54 rifle--since 1987--never been a problem, fast and good on rocks.  But thats just one lock...Tom
The older locks were better, A customer sent me one a couple years ago that was unusable. Can't imagine how that got out of their shop.
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Say, any of you boys smithies? Or, if not smithies per se, were you otherwise trained in the metallurgic arts before straitened circumstances forced you into a life of aimless wanderin'?

Offline WKevinD

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Re: L&R Late English Lock
« Reply #7 on: November 06, 2014, 08:38:04 PM »
I had called Chambers yesterday- they were sending out there last one that's why I started looking for an alternative. Havn't used an L&R in years so I figured I'd ask those who had.
Kevin
PEACE is that glorious moment in history when everyone stands around reloading.  Thomas Jefferson

Offline Don Stith

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Re: L&R Late English Lock
« Reply #8 on: November 06, 2014, 09:17:57 PM »
I recently got a couple of percussion locks from them and they were well made. I like their forged mainspring better than the cast springs others are using.

Offline Chuck Burrows

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Re: L&R Late English Lock
« Reply #9 on: November 06, 2014, 11:15:20 PM »
might take a look at the Davis late Ketland
http://www.trackofthewolf.com/Categories/PartDetail.aspx/724/1/LOCK-LK-F

a friend who is very picky about his locks just got one and was quite impressed with it.....
Two roads diverged in a wood, and I,
I took the one less traveled by,
And that has made all the difference.

SuperCracker

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Re: L&R Late English Lock
« Reply #10 on: November 06, 2014, 11:32:16 PM »
might take a look at the Davis late Ketland
http://www.trackofthewolf.com/Categories/PartDetail.aspx/724/1/LOCK-LK-F

a friend who is very picky about his locks just got one and was quite impressed with it.....

I just finished a rifle with one of these. It is really fast and well made.

Offline Jim Kibler

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Re: L&R Late English Lock
« Reply #11 on: November 06, 2014, 11:34:41 PM »
The idea of "quality" is a very subjective matter.  People come from a wide range of backgrounds and their expectations vary a lot.  I think that in general things have gotten better in the muzzleloading world, but there still lots of room.

Offline Dr. Tim-Boone

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Re: L&R Late English Lock
« Reply #12 on: November 06, 2014, 11:50:05 PM »
might take a look at the Davis late Ketland
http://www.trackofthewolf.com/Categories/PartDetail.aspx/724/1/LOCK-LK-F

a friend who is very picky about his locks just got one and was quite impressed with it.....

I just finished a rifle with one of these. It is really fast and well made.

I used one of these a couple years ago and it was super fast and tight. No delay and sparks will set the house afire.  There are a number of locks that function well...I think the builder/assembler is the essential variable...
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Offline WKevinD

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Re: L&R Late English Lock
« Reply #13 on: November 07, 2014, 04:31:33 AM »
Problem solved.
After listening to the replies I saw "recently unreliable, used to be OK" coming thru.
I was offered a Chambers Late Ketland and bought it.
Thanks for the input!
Kevin
PEACE is that glorious moment in history when everyone stands around reloading.  Thomas Jefferson

Online Bob Roller

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Re: L&R Late English Lock
« Reply #14 on: November 07, 2014, 03:37:11 PM »
The quality of any lock goes to final assembly which should follow close tolerances on the tumble shafts and the sear screw fit thru the sear.Last but not least and in many cases the problem goes to the quality or lack thereof from a foundry.About 98% of the problems with the first generation L&R locks were traced to poor or NO quality control from a foundry which came back on the owners of the lock company.There was no intent to market an inferior product then or NOW and I am amazed that these locks work as well as they do.

Bob Roller

Offline Pete G.

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Re: L&R Late English Lock
« Reply #15 on: November 07, 2014, 04:10:34 PM »
All production locks that I have had experience with require some work, so more so than others. Suppliers are caught between offering an acceptable product and price. If more work is done on finishing the lock the price goes up and people will not buy it. If cutting costs to keep the price competitive causes quality to fall people will not buy it. Sometimes a lock will come through that is not quite what it should be. If you get one like this you should contact the supplier before you go any further.

All suppliers that I am aware of have a reputation for excellent customer service. Twice I have had to send a lock back to the maker. It can be sort of aggravating, but they had excellent response both times.

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Re: L&R Late English Lock
« Reply #16 on: December 16, 2014, 05:23:22 AM »
 I know this is an old thread, but I'll always buy a L&R, first because I'm a left-hander and 2nd because they have the locks that I'll need for my 2 builds down the road, A Queen Ann lock for my Griffin 16ga. Fowler, and then its either another Bailes or a Durs- Egg for my .45 cal. A Vernier. I know its a BIG investment to put out Left-handed but it gets to me when I see a nice fowler being offered but I get a Siler lock if I'm a Lefty, and the company won't leave the lock UN-inlet so I can use a Queen -Ann instead.

Offline Dphariss

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Re: L&R Late English Lock
« Reply #17 on: December 16, 2014, 08:28:24 AM »
I have one on a .54 rifle--since 1987--never been a problem, fast and good on rocks.  But thats just one lock...Tom
The older locks were better, A customer sent me one a couple years ago that was unusable. Can't imagine how that got out of their shop.

I like the L&R 1700 for pistols but I have a welder and the ability to do rework as needed.

Dan
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Offline JTR

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Re: L&R Late English Lock
« Reply #18 on: December 16, 2014, 07:35:11 PM »
Just curious, but what sort of repair work needs to be done on these L&R locks to make them useable?

What needs to be welded on them Dan?

John
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Online Bob Roller

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Re: L&R Late English Lock
« Reply #19 on: December 16, 2014, 08:13:43 PM »
Just curious, but what sort of repair work needs to be done on these L&R locks to make them useable?

What needs to be welded on them Dan?

John

I have bought the EXTERNAL parts from L&R for the small Manton,Durs Egg and the Ashmore and made bench crafted mechanisms for them.No welding required and so
far no reported problems.These locks were not mass market items and as a complete,
ready to install lock ran about $230.

Bob Roller

Offline D. Taylor Sapergia

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Re: L&R Late English Lock
« Reply #20 on: December 16, 2014, 08:29:43 PM »
I don't mean to take the words out of Dan"s mouth, and he's much too much of a gentleman to slam anyone else's work.  So I will make this observation:  Dan had an L & R lock whose tumbler holes and bridle hole did not coincide...the lock was un-useable.  So he welded up the tumbler hole, and re-drilled it in the correct place.  Problem solved, and easier by far than building a lock from scratch.
I hope L & R reads these posts, because it will give them an idea of how their products are accepted - or not.  I recently purchased two L & R locks:  a left hand "American Classic" for my on-the-bench Jaeger build, and a #900 Ashmore lock as a spare for that Hawken fullstock that Herb sold to a buddy of mine.  Both locks came with the new forged springs, and they have nice power and balance.  But their sear springs are not made or set up properly.  In order to get the lock to function the way it should, I had to remove the sear spring and the sear.  The sear needed filing where the spring bears against the top flat, to bring the bearing surface much closer to the pivot screw.  The spring as it arrived, was just a bit more than half way along the top flat of the sear, and a huge amount of pressure was required to trip the lock from full cock.  Next, I heated the spring red, flattened out the steel, re-bent it to create a longer lower leaf, and closed the bend so the spring does not interfere with the action of the sear.  I arched the lower leaf, thinned it considerably, and narrowed it at its tip.  Now the spring presses down hard on the correct place on the top of the sear - right behind the boss of the screw hole.  The action of the sear now is crisp and firm.  It engages the tumbler's notches with a satisfying click, and does not hurt my thumb when tripping the lock.
There was one more 'issue' with the lock that needed my attention.  The hole drilled for the frizzen was in the wrong place.  The result of this was to leave the frizzen badly fitting the pan - gaps that were unacceptable.  So I filled the hole, clamped the frizzen to the pan, re-drilled.  The hole in the frizzen was too large for the screw that came with the lock.  It allowed the frizzen to ride up and away from the pan under the frizzen spring's tension.  So I made a new screw with closer tolerances, and now the lock makes me happy.  
All this work is considered by most to be a pita, shoddy workmanship, careless work, etc.  But I do not mind the challenge of taking an otherwise great lock and tweeking it to make it better.  It is so much easier than building one from scratch with saw and file.  Sending locks back is not an option for us Canucks.  You would not believe the BS we must endure from our own Border Services.  Although, thanks to NAFTA, we don't pay customs anymore, we have to pay taxes on the lock as if we were buying it.  Yes, we can get re-imbursed, but it takes paperwork, and about four months.  So I choose to tinker.
I will continue to use L & R's locks, and of course, Chambers' and Davis' as well.  Thanks to all of you for the proliferation of excellent locks.
« Last Edit: December 17, 2014, 01:27:51 AM by Dennis Glazener »
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Offline JTR

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Re: L&R Late English Lock
« Reply #21 on: December 16, 2014, 08:46:24 PM »
Thanks for your explanation Taylor.
John
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Offline Robby

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Re: L&R Late English Lock
« Reply #22 on: December 16, 2014, 09:04:44 PM »
Thank you Taylor. I have been critical of L&R locks for many of the same reasons and more. I use a lot of left hand locks and their patterns usually match my needs, if not a little judicious filing here and there will always do the trick. My criticisms are Always done with the hope that they will address them. I like their locks, but if for the same amount of money I can buy one that arrives trouble free and it can be modified to suit the current project, I will, and have. They should think about how much more business they could do if they addressed these problems.
Robby
molon labe
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Online Bob Roller

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Re: L&R Late English Lock
« Reply #23 on: December 16, 2014, 09:40:17 PM »
Thank you Taylor. I have been critical of L&R locks for many of the same reasons and more. I use a lot of left hand locks and their patterns usually match my needs, if not a little judicious filing here and there will always do the trick. My criticisms are Always done with the hope that they will address them. I like their locks, but if for the same amount of money I can buy one that arrives trouble free and it can be modified to suit the current project, I will, and have. They should think about how much more business they could do if they addressed these problems.
Robby

 L&R is a production shop,plain and simple.They do what they can but having once
worked in a production shop (mining equipment)I know that quotas must be met.
I am certain there is no attempt on their part to market a flawed product and never
has been.The fact they went away from cast mainsprings should say something for
an attempt to upgrade their offerings.They are captive to the quality controls offered
by whatever foundry they deal with.To me that is a bit scary.The three lock line up
I used as a platform for improved versions were good and other than a specialized mechanism,I had no reason to alter these external parts.That can be left up to the
gunmakers that used them.The same goes for the fine Chambers late Ketland the
Davis Twigg.I am now finishing two Shoults/Ketlands for MLBS and there will be no more
of these.I haven't made this lock for years and had forgotten what a PITA they were.

Bob Roller

Offline Robby

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Re: L&R Late English Lock
« Reply #24 on: December 16, 2014, 11:53:55 PM »
Yes, I understand you Bob. I just think for the same amount of money, from Jim Chambers, and Davis, through the Mold and Gun shop, you get a lock that has consistently good castings, with superior fitting of parts, and function. I suppose once and a while one might slip through, but I have yet to receive one.
Robby
molon labe
We the people are the rightful masters of both Congress and the courts, not to overthrow the Constitution but to overthrow the men who pervert the Constitution. A. Lincoln