Author Topic: The MRRW Hatfield rifle?  (Read 25732 times)

nosrettap1958

  • Guest
The MRRW Hatfield rifle?
« on: November 10, 2014, 05:14:22 PM »
I was looking through some old stuff I had in my books and a brochure from the Missourri River Rifle Works Inc. dropped out.  The rifle they said is a Hatfield rifle but built with a Green Mountain barrel and an oversized L&R lock and L&R trigger.  A substantial improvement, I believe, over the older Hatfields.

The rifle on the cover of the brochure is a spitting image of the older Hatfield rifle built by the old firm of Hatfield Rifle Works, the lock is even stamped "Hatfield Warranted" and in the same location, St Joseph Missouri.  What ever happened with those guys? Any information?

Offline Mike Brooks

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 13415
    • Mike Brooks Gunmaker
Re: The MRRW Hatfield rifle?
« Reply #1 on: November 10, 2014, 10:25:53 PM »
Never heard of them. I wonder why they would bother to copy one of the most ugly production guns ever produced?
« Last Edit: November 10, 2014, 11:50:21 PM by Dennis Glazener »
NEW WEBSITE! www.mikebrooksflintlocks.com
Say, any of you boys smithies? Or, if not smithies per se, were you otherwise trained in the metallurgic arts before straitened circumstances forced you into a life of aimless wanderin'?

Offline T*O*F

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5123
Re: The MRRW Hatfield rifle?
« Reply #2 on: November 10, 2014, 11:34:08 PM »
If they are the "last" reincarnation of the Hatfield, they convinced the State of MO to underwrite them setting up in the old historic rifle works and then went belly up.
Dave Kanger

If religion is opium for the masses, the internet is a crack, pixel-huffing orgy that deafens the brain, numbs the senses and scrambles our peer list to include every anonymous loser, twisted deviant, and freak as well as people we normally wouldn't give the time of day.
-S.M. Tomlinson

nosrettap1958

  • Guest
Re: The MRRW Hatfield rifle?
« Reply #3 on: November 11, 2014, 12:46:20 AM »
I know Mike, few people have heard of them, but I was just wonderin.

Offline Daniel

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 472
Re: The MRRW Hatfield rifle?
« Reply #4 on: November 11, 2014, 10:12:00 PM »
They were big here in Missouri for a while. Nothing like the Italian made ones. In St. Joseph
there is an antique store where they were sold out of. There is a lot of other guns there that they made.
I haven't been there in a while , but remember some half stock Plains style rifles too. Good quality
early on.
Daniel     Ecc.4:12

Three balls

  • Guest
Re: The MRRW Hatfield rifle?
« Reply #5 on: November 12, 2014, 06:45:04 AM »
The antique store in St. Joseph, Mo., was named Hatfield's. If I remember correctly, they were the originators of the Hatfield rifles. The owner claimed to be kin to the Hatfield's involved in the feud, and was named Hatfield. Last time I was in St. Joseph, {about a year ago} they'd had an auction, and the store was empty. I inquired about them in another gun shop, and was told they went on an adventure.

nosrettap1958

  • Guest
Re: The MRRW Hatfield rifle?
« Reply #6 on: November 12, 2014, 10:42:18 AM »
They sold well here in Pennsylvania also in the 80's, various black powder shops couldn't keep them in stock and couldn't order them fast enough. I think that is where Mr. Hatfield started having troubles.

nosrettap1958

  • Guest
Re: The MRRW Hatfield rifle?
« Reply #7 on: November 12, 2014, 10:29:24 PM »
Quote
Never heard of them. I wonder why they would bother to copy one of the most ugly production guns ever produced?

And Mike, you ain't saying much there considering most muzzleloaders are considered ugly when compared to the muzzleloaders you build.

Offline Mike Brooks

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 13415
    • Mike Brooks Gunmaker
Re: The MRRW Hatfield rifle?
« Reply #8 on: November 13, 2014, 02:05:17 AM »
Quote
Never heard of them. I wonder why they would bother to copy one of the most ugly production guns ever produced?

And Mike, you ain't saying much there considering most muzzleloaders are considered ugly when compared to the muzzleloaders you build.
Thanks for the compliment, but that isn't what I was fishing for. The Hatfield was a great idea, but the end result was quite a piece of beef. For a little more time and effort it could have been one of the better production guns....tooo many production short cuts.

As a side note, i was at one of the biggest events in the midwest (Prairie Du Chien) back in the early/mid 80's and saw some incredible Hatfields built by I don''t know who. Standard hatfield parts with the trigger guard inlet instead of surface mounted,  and properly slimmed down in the forestock. Fully relief carved with nice engraved brass patch boxes. Really super guns. Seems like they were $2500 or so which was a pretty incredible amount of money back in those days. I have always wondered since who was involved with that endeavor, they had probably 1/2 dozen rifles in a rack for sale.Never saw them again after that.
NEW WEBSITE! www.mikebrooksflintlocks.com
Say, any of you boys smithies? Or, if not smithies per se, were you otherwise trained in the metallurgic arts before straitened circumstances forced you into a life of aimless wanderin'?

Offline D. Buck Stopshere

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 141
Re: The MRRW Hatfield rifle?
« Reply #9 on: November 30, 2014, 03:15:22 AM »
Mike, I believe early on, Ted Hatfield was crafting fine rifles, and somewhere along the way, he got some national media coverage. As the demand grew, he found he could not get supplied regularly with Douglas barrels and Siler locks, so he turned to Davide Pedersoli. Pedersoli provided everything except the wood.

I still have brochures from the days I sold Hatfield rifles. Spread across the front, it reads, "Uniquely American". We Hatfield dealers were left in the dark about Italian locks and barrels. One day, I decided I wanted to switch barrels on two Hatfields. As I removed the first barrel, I felt stamping on the bottom flat, and turned it over and saw the Pedersoli Mfg stamp.

I called "Oz", the gunsmith over at Log Cabin Shop and told him of my discovery, and he took a barrel out and discovered that the flat where the Pedersoli stamp would have been, was filed off and the rest is history. About this time, early '90's, I became enamored with Jack Garner's, Tennessee Valley line of rifles, so we switched "horses" and never looked back.

The Hatfield was an attempt to produce a "handmade" custom rifle that sold between $ 350 (?) for Grade I to $ 650 (?) for the Grade III. Grade III had Premium ++ wood. The locks were out of proportion to the rifle and the barrels had patent breeches. The barrel threads were about two inches long. After about ten shots, the breech cup would foul up.

Pedersoli produces its "Blue Ridge Hunter" which is the continuation of the Hatfield Rifle.

Buck Buchanan
Cumberland Knife & Gun Works, Inc (1972-1999)
The late Lewis B. Sanchez, Owner & Partner
I'd give my right arm to be ambidextrous.

NMLRA Field Rep- North Carolina

Offline Dphariss

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9920
  • Kill a Commie for your Mommy
Re: The MRRW Hatfield rifle?
« Reply #10 on: November 30, 2014, 03:43:30 AM »
It has proven impossible to mass produce a proper Kentucky or Hawken.

Dan
He who dares not offend cannot be honest. Thomas Paine

Offline D. Buck Stopshere

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 141
Re: The MRRW Hatfield rifle?
« Reply #11 on: December 01, 2014, 12:16:48 AM »
Fortunately, Dan, for factory gunmakers, beauty is in the eye of the beholder, especially in the eye of the uninitiated public.

Back in the day (and even today) more than once, I have heard "pilgrims" exclaim upon seeing the CVA Kentucky Rifle, "that's the most beautiful rifle I have ever seen. :o This is the only gun for me.

For some its a maturing process.

Folks like me, started with a Dixie Gun Works import, then graduated to a semi-custom rifle like Frank Burton produced in the early seventies, and finally saw the beauty of grace and architecture of a master gun maker, like the late John Bivins, and waited three years for him to call to say, "It's ready to pick up".



,
« Last Edit: December 01, 2014, 12:18:07 AM by D. Buck Stopshere »
I'd give my right arm to be ambidextrous.

NMLRA Field Rep- North Carolina

nosrettap1958

  • Guest
Re: The MRRW Hatfield rifle?
« Reply #12 on: December 04, 2014, 06:30:33 AM »
I agree there but there was also another problem. Back in the 70's and in the 80's there just wasn't all that much information on who built what. A small black and white ad in the back of a Muzzleblast magazine was all most saw on who was a custom builder. Most relied on their local black powder shops and their stock and their expertise.  The absolute best rifle I heard of back then was the Green River Hawken as the American Rifleman did a article about their rifles, but no one around these parts supplied them. Only the Hatfield and Dixie's Tennessee Mountain rifle with its Japanese barrel were available, except for the CVA or the Navy Arms. I never heard of TVM rifles back then. 

Its a whole nuther ball game now.
« Last Edit: December 04, 2014, 02:30:18 PM by crawdad »

D.Boone

  • Guest
Re: The MRRW Hatfield rifle?
« Reply #13 on: December 12, 2014, 01:41:59 AM »
I have two Hatfield's and they are great shooting guns. Not everyone has thousands of dollars to spend on a custom made rifle.
Just my .02.

nosrettap1958

  • Guest
Re: The MRRW Hatfield rifle?
« Reply #14 on: December 12, 2014, 02:02:04 AM »
D. Boone, were they from Missouri River Rifle Works or from the older Hatfield Rifle Works?

Offline bob in the woods

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4555
Re: The MRRW Hatfield rifle?
« Reply #15 on: December 12, 2014, 08:06:12 AM »
Back in the early 90's , S.I.R. in Winnipeg, Manitoba was a dealer for the Hatfield rifles.  Real nice glossy brochure. They had a fancy "Hawken" rifle that they were coming out with too , although I don't know if they sold many .The rifles were not inexpensive, averaging somewhere just under $1000. which was a good chunk of money back then.
I almost ordered one of the squirrel rifles, but ended up buying parts from Jack Garner and building one instead.

D.Boone

  • Guest
Re: The MRRW Hatfield rifle?
« Reply #16 on: December 17, 2014, 07:32:16 AM »
Mine are from the Missouri River Rifle Works.

Offline WadePatton

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5303
  • Tennessee
Re: The MRRW Hatfield rifle?
« Reply #17 on: December 22, 2014, 06:24:04 PM »
Ted Hatfield made rifle on Gun Broker, with a certification from Ted, "early eighties".

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=459513064

Hold to the Wind

Offline Mike Brooks

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 13415
    • Mike Brooks Gunmaker
Re: The MRRW Hatfield rifle?
« Reply #18 on: December 22, 2014, 08:32:46 PM »
Golly, $1700 for a Hatfield. I need to raise my prices.  :o
NEW WEBSITE! www.mikebrooksflintlocks.com
Say, any of you boys smithies? Or, if not smithies per se, were you otherwise trained in the metallurgic arts before straitened circumstances forced you into a life of aimless wanderin'?

Offline D. Buck Stopshere

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 141
Re: The MRRW Hatfield rifle?
« Reply #19 on: December 22, 2014, 10:04:57 PM »
Mike,

Referring back to my previous post, reading the first statement ought to justify the top bid. :)
I'd give my right arm to be ambidextrous.

NMLRA Field Rep- North Carolina

Offline hanshi

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5335
  • My passion is longrifles!
    • martialartsusa.com
Re: The MRRW Hatfield rifle?
« Reply #20 on: December 22, 2014, 10:14:31 PM »
Beauty IS in the eye of the beholder.  To me, the original Hatfields didn't look too bad at all; The Pedersoli ones not so much.  For instance, I find club butt fowlers ugly beyond measure while others love them.  And I've seen guns produced by well known builders that I wouldn't want to own.  Mike HAS built some really fine guns and has also turned out some dogs; just like all other makers.  Unfortunate thing about Mike is that he trashes BUILDERS rather than only the guns; shame.  I don't really have anything against Mike and he has said some nice things and made a nice offer to me in the past.  He does have a pretty good eye for junk but you have to give mass production guns their due.  Without them Many of us possibly wouldn't have gotten into BP.  So be kind to those CVAs, T/Cs, Traditions, etc.  They are simply what they are and they give good service.  The prices mentioned above for Hatfields are absurd, IMHO; and even the Pedersoli are way overpriced.  I wouldn't pay those kind of dollars for that rifle, not on your life.
!Jozai Senjo! "always present on the battlefield"
Young guys should hang out with old guys; old guys know stuff.

Offline Mike Brooks

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 13415
    • Mike Brooks Gunmaker
Re: The MRRW Hatfield rifle?
« Reply #21 on: December 23, 2014, 01:04:31 AM »
Quote
Mike HAS built some really fine guns and has also turned out some dogs;
Looks like you get a punch on the nose now! ;D

Quote
Unfortunate thing about Mike is that he trashes BUILDERS rather than only the guns; shame
Guilty as charged, call them as I see them.....try not to but that's the way it goes. And no matter what you or anybody else says, those Hatfield guns are ugly as sin and fought with problems which are hard to fix.
Besides, this is a board which is mainly concerned with the building of custom hand made muzzleloading guns, not mass produced low end guns. I may be mistaken though..... ;) ( I was wrong once before  ;D)
NEW WEBSITE! www.mikebrooksflintlocks.com
Say, any of you boys smithies? Or, if not smithies per se, were you otherwise trained in the metallurgic arts before straitened circumstances forced you into a life of aimless wanderin'?

Offline Jim Chambers

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1828
Re: The MRRW Hatfield rifle?
« Reply #22 on: December 23, 2014, 04:03:40 AM »
A little funny story about Hatfield:  years ago when they were in business Ted called me and ordered a dozen of our early Ketland locks and said he would send a check as soon as he got them.  The check never came even after several invoices were sent.  About two years later I got a call from a nice lady at Hatfield asking if they could purchase some spare parts for the locks.  I thought for just a minute and then told her yes, but I would need to send them COD if that was ok.  She agreed.  I took a chance that just maybe she or some secretary would cut a check for the UPS driver without checking with Ted.  So, I sent the few spare parts and included on the COD invoice not only the cost of the parts but the cost of the dozen locks that had never been paid.  Sure enough a check for the full amount arrived in a few days from UPS.  They never ordered any more locks, not that I would have sent them any anyway, at least not on open account.

Offline smart dog

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 7013
Re: The MRRW Hatfield rifle?
« Reply #23 on: December 23, 2014, 04:26:15 AM »
Hi,
So Jim, evidently, Ted from Hatfield attempted to steal from you.  That tells me all I need to know about that company.  Nice to know that they are gone.  Good riddance.

dave
"The main accomplishment of modern economics is to make astrology look good."

Offline WadePatton

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5303
  • Tennessee
Re: The MRRW Hatfield rifle?
« Reply #24 on: December 23, 2014, 06:03:37 AM »
Golly, $1700 for a Hatfield. I need to raise my prices.  :o

number of bids = zero. 

So don't be so hasty with your menu.  :P




(no i do get how artisans are generally underpaid)

GOOD ON Jim for getting PAID!
Hold to the Wind