Shot Cup

[huckfinn]

What kind of shot cup could improve my shotgun pattern?  I have a 20 gauge flintlock.  Its loaded the standard way but the pattern isn't so hot.  At twenty yards its pretty good.  I would like to get it a little tighter for at least a 30 yard shot.  I am using an ounce of copper plated #6 shot with an equal volume of 3f black powder. 

[Feltwad]

For me personally you do not need them if you need that extra range then then slightly increase the powder .If you still  need a shot cup always use paper, never use plaswad it will cause you more problems with a plastic film on the barrel wall this in turn if not removed will cause barrel ripple.
Feltwad

[northmn]

Most find that a shotgun patterns best with one or two card wads over powder.  Too much wadding hits the back of the shot column and gives you "donuts" for patterns.  Try 2f as equal volumes of 3f may up pressures.  Some cut back slightly on the 3f.  Shot cups will help reduce barrel scrubbing ie. deformation of shot against the barrel but really often do not perform any miracles.  Plastic cups can be used but with a card wad to protect the wad against melting to the barrel as Feltwad suggested, however I think the paper wads may be the way to go, especially if lubed like a patch in a rifle.  If you insist on plastic I would cut off all the cushioning and use the cup only.     I do not know your needs, but if the weapon is cylinder bored, 30 yards is about it for most normal loads.

DP     

[keweenaw]

It seems that shooting shot loads in the muzzleloader requires a lot more experimentation than in a cartridge gun.  The biggest variable is the wadding.  Some guns shoot great with both a card and fiber wad, some guns like only cards, some only felt.  Some with shoot with 1 card, others like 2.  It takes some patience and a lot of butcher paper to find out what works best in your gun.  A shot cup should tighten up your pattern a bit but you'll need to buy some of the heavier ones from Ballistic Products or some similar place.  Use a card under the cup and experiment with the depth you split the cup.

Tom

[northmn]

It seems that shooting shot loads in the muzzleloader requires a lot more experimentation than in a cartridge gun.  The biggest variable is the wadding.  Some guns shoot great with both a card and fiber wad, some guns like only cards, some only felt.  Some with shoot with 1 card, others like 2.  It takes some patience and a lot of butcher paper to find out what works best in your gun.  A shot cup should tighten up your pattern a bit but you'll need to buy some of the heavier ones from Ballistic Products or some similar place.  Use a card under the cup and experiment with the depth you split the cup.

Tom

On another site an individual asked about wadding in originals.  One person that had seen a few originals stated that he had seen them loaded with anything from leaves, wasp nests, wadded paper to cloth.  I sometimes wonder if the card and felt wads aren't too good.  I know wasps nest has been recommended for years (you are supposed to either use an empty one or kill the things before using, I gather one individual did not figure that out)  I think it tends to disentegrate upon firing.  I used napkins one time in a trap shoot and broke clays.  Who knows?

DP

[Longknife]

I always start with equal amounts of shot and powder and up the shot charge by 10 grain increments till the pattern is sufficient....Ed

[Daryl]

I always start with equal amounts of shot and powder and up the shot charge by 10 grain increments till the pattern is sufficient....Ed

This is good advice - as the other guys have noted, experiment with different powder charges and shot charges - I'd personally not use more than 1 1/8oz and would prefer 7/8 to 1 oz. of shot.  2 drams to 2 3/4 drams is about all needed.  Others use more powder and more shot, but it's a 20 bore, not a 10 bore.  Sometimes all it takes is a change of a wad or two - sometimes it's just a drop or increase of 5 gr. of powder. With only one barrel to work with, working up a load should be fairly easy.

Paper tubes made from Post-It notes (small ones cut in 1/2) will sometimes really help. Some guns want them split, others don't care. It's kinda like working up an accurate load for a rifle - kinda exactly like working up a load for a rifle.

[bob in the woods]

I have worked up loads for  28 gauge, a 20 gauge and  10.  All but one liked more shot than powder.
Especially the 28. Also, I usually get better results with larger shot sizes, ie 4 rather than 6. etc
My 20 is a definate 30 yd gun with the post it note pad shot cups.  The equal volume powder/shot recipe
has not produced the best patterns in any of the guns I've tried. If I remember correctly, the last 20 I built [ sold it !!! ]  really liked an 80 gr volume of 5's with a 60 gr volume of 3F.
Another example: my 10 bore uses 120 to 140 gr FFg with a round ball, but shoots an oz and a half of 4's like crazy with only 85 gr of FFg.

[roundball]

What kind of shot cup could improve my shotgun pattern?  I have a 20 gauge flintlock.  Its loaded the standard way but the pattern isn't so hot.  At twenty yards its pretty good.  I would like to get it a little tighter for at least a 30 yard shot.  I am using an ounce of copper plated #6 shot with an equal volume of 3f black powder. 

If you're using relatively modern manufactured Lawrence brand copper plated shot, instead of the high quality original Winchester Lubaloy copper plated shot, my experience is that its junk...normal hard magnum lead #6s patterned better than the Lawerence brand copper plated shot because they went cheap and instead of plating chilled shot, they just used cheap soft lead with a copper colored wash, not plated at all.

By contrast, Ballistics Products Nickel Plated #6s tightened the pattern up some compared to hard magnum lead shot.  And if your interest is in turkey hunting you can use a lot more shot than you're using...a long shot string is a good thing for a tiny stationary target like a turkey head.

Some folks are locked into a mindset that BP smoothbores must be loaded exactly like a modern equivalent gauge and to each their own of course, but it simply isn't a requirement in the muzzleloading smoothbore world

[huckfinn]

Thanks for all the input!  I'll try a few different things and maybe this spring I will take it for turkeys.  I will let you know how I make out.  Someday if I get brave I'm going to post some pictures.  The guns I see on here are truly fantastic! 

[Clark Badgett]

I am going off of memory here so... I believe that the military arsenals would use a piece of stiffer paper rolled and folded to form a cup for old 19th century shot loads. They would roll it up, place the shot inside the cup, and then insert the shot in the rolded main cartridge tube and then charge the bottom of the tube with powder and then seal with a folded tail. I never got to try this so I don't know how it would perform.

[northmn]

One area a modern shot cup helps is in giving the shot on the bottom somewhere to expand.  A modern shotcup is tapered partly for that reason (it also could be just a by product of draft for manufacture).  A good shot cup has more material at the bottom of the cup than the top.  when I experimented with different heavy plastices to try to make my own steel shot wraps I found one could get about as good of protection by cutting one wrap 1/3 the height of the other and puttin it inside.  Some of the early methods likely worked.  Granddad was not stupid and tended to use what worked with the tools he had.

DP

[Daryl]

Oh how I'd like to have a couple thousand Ely 'shot' ctgs. in 14 bore - various colours, of course for various ranges.  I think Taylor and I might have that Manton of his, shooting ducks - ooops - I meant crows , at 80/90 yards.  Yes- they'd be lead, wouldn't they!- 

[woodsrunner]

I have a question, please. But first, I'm very limited in experience on shot or round balls out of a smoothbore.

In using the techniques mentioned above, what difference-if any-would a jug choke make?

[northmn]

Jug chokes make a lot of difference and can increase the range significantly.  Turkey guns can be jug choked to the equivalent of a full choke in a modern gun.  They may also louse up round ball accuracy a little and were not authentic in flintlock smooth bores, which may or may not be of concern to the individual.  Some claim however that a thick wad can "bridge" in a jug choke and not provide any better pattern than a open choke.  Their prime advantage would be in hunting waterfowl and turkeys.  VM Starr jug choked a lot of ML's and there are quite a few doing so today.  Choking a shot load tends to increase the nature of the pattern and causes more shot to concentrate in the center 15-20" of the distribution depending on load.  As an aside, I remember when 1F was considered a standard load for shotguns, mainly 12 bores.  I think that its use is where the equal powder measure to shot measure came from as most shooters reduce by about that much with 2F.  It was said to pattern better, and kick less.  If you think about it it is kind of like comparing 3f to 2f in rifles.

DP

[roundball]

I've had two GM .62cal Flint smoothbore drop-in barrels jug choked:
One "Full" as a turkey barrel, and I've also shot some trap targets with it.
One "Imp. Cyl Plus"...halfway between IC & MOD...as a general purpose choke for doves, crows, etc.

I was not satisfied with PRB accuracy out of the "Full" choked barrel and would not use it for deer hunting...discovering that, I had a 3rd .62cal smoothbore barrel 'rifled' by Ed Rayl.

I haven't bothered trying PRBs out of the IC+ choked barrel as I have the .62cal rifled barrel.