Reproductions from India

[Curt Larsen]

The question came up a couple of days ago about finding a big lock for a Dutch fowler or the like.  Someone brought up imports from India and I mentioned that several locks were up on ebay at the time.  Last year we took a trip to India for a wedding and we stayed for a month touring around.  Anyway, before we left, I contacted the supplier in Udaipur, India the folks with the locks on ebay, and made arrangements to meet them and tour their facility.  It was quite an experience and something to share with you.  The company is called Narayan Sports Ltd.  Their website is www.narayansports.com.  Here is a bunch of photos I took of their operation.  I also took a 5 minute video of their smith working his forge, but I can't figure out how to get off my iphone yet.  As soon as I do I'll post it.  So . . . . . first we visited a storeroom at the owners house.  Here is what we saw:



These are two and three band Enfield muskets waiting for buyers.  They are smoothbores and go for $300 ea or $200 ea in lots of 10.  

Next came a store of stock blanks mostly in teak or some other wood I think.


Following this we went to their office, showroom, and shop.  Here is their operation:



It was quite an experience.  The day we visited they were producing locks for a British rifle that I can't recall.  Anyway, here is the finished lock:



They hand forge all their parts.  It is a two man operation with the smith and his helper.  They both sit cross-legged on the dirt floor.  The smith puts on protective socks to ward off sparks.  The anvil is a flat, square steel plate about 6 inches thick.  The forge is a galvanized bucket filled with a clay liner.  It uses forced air supplied by an electric blower that adjusted with a little flue in the air tube.  The forge is covered with a plate during heating.  So here a couple of shots of the operation:

 

This is anvil and forge.

Here it is in operation.  They were forging a sample frizzen to show me.



After rough shaping, the face of the frizzen is given a better form in this die:



All of the rough forgings are shaped by hand with lots and lots of files.  Here is that operation.  Note the lock plates and hammers.



Then come the stocks.  There is a master stocker and his apprentice (in this case his son).  The wood is I don't what, teak?, some other exotic hardwood?





The apprentice:



This was quite an experience and really insightful.  I've seen their locks and handled their completed muskets.  The locks are obviously crude by our standards and must need lots of tuning and probably case hardening of the frizzens.  The Enfield muskets were surprisingly nice even though smoothbores.  I'll keep trying to get this video downloaded and post that as well it is pretty interesting complete with all the sparks and hammering.  If you need to contact these guys you have their website above.  I also have their email addresses.  Enjoy.

[2veeps]

Great pics!  Thanks. "Three hundred years of tradition inencombered by progress".  Skills I'm sure many of us wish we had. While each component is being hand made, I would guess that replacement parts are far from "drop-in".  Do you know what kind of finish went on the stock?

  Let us know when the video is available?

  -veep

[Acer Saccharum]

It's humbling to see what these guys do with a very few tools and lots of elbow grease. Thanks for the pictures and the story.

[alyce-james]

C. Larsen; Sir, most interesting pictures. I think I enjoyed that part of your vacation as it appears you did. One thing for is thankful for is my stand -up forge and stumped anvil. If I were to use the ground for my shop I would still be there in the morning -- stiff --. Thanks for sharing, AJ.

[sweed]

  Dont know what wood that is, but its not like any teak I ever used on a yacht! Much to blond for teak.

[Mike Brooks]

So close yet so far. A QC guy who knew how the old guns actually looked/worked would do them wonders. Unfortunately , even though hand built/forged they end up looking like cartoon guns.

[Acer Saccharum]

Yeah, it's like guys in British Columbia building Pennsylvania long rifles....hahhahahahaha...who would have thought? They build cartoon guns, too, I hear.

[WKevinD]

Looking at the pics. it makes you wonder how far off the mark this is from the local ramped up production in the 1770s on the along the Susquehanna. Imagine being a working gunsmith turning out 50-100 guns per year and getting an order for 500-1,000 muskets. Would (aside from a stand up forge) the shops look that much different? Would the quality be that much different? I am sure there were individual riflesmiths that produced all quality but there were also pressures to produce and businessmen willing to go all in.
Kevin

[Curt Larsen]

Yeah, I don't think the wood is teak although some of the Indian repros that end up on the market here do have teak stocks.  There are lots of exotic woods to choose from over there.  I don't know what type of stain they use.

[Jim Kibler]

Yeah, I'm with you Mike Brooks.  It is sort of a shame...  They are no doubt hard working and have some ability.  With the right direction, something basic yet good could be created at what would certainly be a great price.  But, I guess this sort of thing is an old story...

[alex e.]

So close yet so far. A QC guy who knew how the old guns actually looked/worked would do them wonders. Unfortunately , even though hand built/forged they end up looking like cartoon guns.

I could not agree more..

[Turtle]

I heard that they use rosewood, which I'm unfamiliar with. I also heard that rosewood sawdust is bad for you.
                                                              Turtle
                                           

[Tony Clark]

Yeah, I'm with you Mike Brooks.  It is sort of a shame...  They are no doubt hard working and have some ability.  With the right direction, something basic yet good could be created at what would certainly be a great price.  But, I guess this sort of thing is an old story...

\

You are with Mike about what exactly??... that these guys from India are untrained in American Longrifles or a higher state of building? Why?? If they were they would most likely put you out of business Jim. Cause they work for 1$ a day or similar. Sure, they can't do what you do... but they have more time then you and they and they are also hungrier. <<<An old story??... the oldest for sure......

I thank Curt for showing this! Its what I want to see here instead of the same old

[FlintFan]

I think Mike is just pointing out that the effort to make a correctly shaped and proportioned gun is not really more work than what they are already turning out, given the methods they are using.  If they had correct "patterns" to make their work to, or as Mike pointed out someone to implement stricter quality control standards, the opinion/quality of the work coming out of India would be much improved, and would command a higher price as a result.  

[Jim Kibler]

Hey Tony.  There was no ill intent meant from my message.  I guess it just came from a place that admires their hard work, but wishes some better results could be obtained.  For their sake.  This is just the mentality of a craftsman I guess.   Like somebody said, it wouldn't necessarily take a huge amount more effort to make better.  I enjoyed the photos as well.

Jim

[Acer Saccharum]

I admire the can-do work ethic.

I believe these guys would make a better product, closer to a faithful reproduction, if they had some direction from their distributors. Lacking that, they will continue on their course.

....and maybe the market place is perfectly happy with the results they are getting.

[Mike Brooks]

Yeah, I'm with you Mike Brooks.  It is sort of a shame...  They are no doubt hard working and have some ability.  With the right direction, something basic yet good could be created at what would certainly be a great price.  But, I guess this sort of thing is an old story...

\

You are with Mike about what exactly??... that these guys from India are untrained in American Longrifles or a higher state of building? Why?? If they were they would most likely put you out of business Jim. Cause they work for 1$ a day or similar. Sure, they can't do what you do... but they have more time then you and they and they are also hungrier. <<<An old story??... the oldest for sure......

I thank Curt for showing this! Its what I want to see here instead of the same old

Maybe they should pay them $2 a day instead of $1 and build a correct gun......

These guys have the basic skills, they just don't know what the end product is supposed to look like. Some enterprising business man ought to take an original gun to them so they can see what they are supposed to look like. It's like they are working from blurry pictures with no measurments what so ever. These things are at this point nothing but ugly clubs..... It would be so easy to do them right. And, these things are dirt cheap here in the states, wouldn't the buyers of these things pay 2X the current price to have something that's right?
 And crickey, somebody send them a boatload of walnut so they can get rid of that awfull bongo wood they make them out of. As I said, it would all be so easy with even a little effort, even at double the end cost.
 And, while I'm at it, show the "master gunstocker" how to sharpen a chisel.... The inletting on these things look like it was executed with a dull screw driver!

[Mike Brooks]

If nothing else, have some pride and BUY AMERICAN

[mountainman70]

Yeah, it's like guys in British Columbia building Pennsylvania long rifles....hahhahahahaha...who would have thought? They build cartoon guns, too, I hear.

If this aint throwin down the gauntlette,I sho dont kno what is!!!!Com'on Taylor-git him!   Dave

[Telgan]

For a minute there, I thought he was going to say " Buy Iowa"

[PPatch]

Yeah, it's like guys in British Columbia building Pennsylvania long rifles....hahhahahahaha...who would have thought? They build cartoon guns, too, I hear.

If this aint throwin down the gauntlette,I sho dont kno what is!!!!Com'on Taylor-git him!  Dave

Yeah Dave, I kept scrolling down expected to see a post that looked all burnt out like black powder had exploded in the frame instead of the usual post... so far nothing. I believe they've gone to hibernation anyway. Perhaps the explosion will come next spring.

Very interesting photo's Curt! Thanks for posting those, the video would be interesting too no doubt.  

dp

[David R. Pennington]

From the looks of the sparks I say they are forging with charcoal?

[EC121]

If the stocker can stand up and inlet, why can't the smith stand up and forge?  Have to admire the effort no matter what the product looks like.  How many of us could turn out a product working on the ground?

[inlikeflint]

Knock the quality but I wonder how many original US made guns were similar.  Seems the only ones left are mostly the high quality guns from the big names.  The ones of less quality probably made into fence posts or the like and were never destined to survive!

[hammer]

Great piece.  I can do no more than admire the work these people produce with, by modern Western standards, such few tools and equipment.   But then a lot of what we have in the way of machine tools particulary is to compensate for the lack of a long apprenticeship.  And they do this is put bread on the table.  In India if you don't work you and your family don't eat.

The East India Company records show the British searched the continent for a suitable alternative for walnut for gunstocks but found none.   They had to continue importing replacement stocks from England at great cost.   The British muzzleloaders were always outperformed by the locally produced long native guns.  The latter had a smaller bore and were far more accurate.   And were likely made using the same practice's we see above.   

I would prefer to look at this from the viewpoint of could (would) the much vaunted Western countries produce guns of that quality for the same price?