Reproductions from India

[Mike Brooks]

I would prefer to look at this from the viewpoint of could (would) the much vaunted Western countries produce guns of that quality for the same price?

 
 Who would WANT to produce a gun of that quality at any price?

Btw, I thank the original poster for posting the photos. Even though I find these Indian guns horrid examples of craftsmanship it is interesting to see how they are made. I have seen many "modern" guns (enfields, pistols  and revolvers of all description etc...) made in the pakistanai area using methods identical to these.

[Captchee]

Great photos , thanks for posting . Myself I would like to see your video when you get that figured out

 I would agree  with what the others have said about the quality .
 Now that being said , I also think that  a whole lot of folks  might just be stretched to do  better  if  forced to  under the same conditions ,with the same tools and under the same time constraints .
 Less we also forget , despite the short comings some of them are  a $#*! of a lot  more correct then many of the rifles  marketed  by production companies of the past .
 When it comes to the locks . Yes, as I said in the other thread , they can be crude . However no more crude IMO then  the vast majority of locks  from liege in the late 19th century  . And frankly not a whole lot less  then some of the locks sold by Dixie
 Could they be better  by our standards , ya no doubt about it . But even if they did  they would probably still get trashed
So  I don’t think ill trash them to hard  as it surves  no purpose .  I sure wouldn’t want to have to  build that way or for that price
On the bright side at least those folks are working at something and earning a wage . Something that seems to be  less and less common here anymore

[kaintuck]

I'm gonna notify OSHA and wage and labor unions, hahahahaaaa.....

Thanks for the pictures.......Kiber pass rifles no doubt, but they have a job and are willing to work. Someone here could cast a plastic copy of a couple of rifles and mail it to them. I'm not interested, but it could be done.
A process improvement WOULD boost sales no doubt....


Marc n tomtm

[Turtle]

 Several reenacting people around here have these guns they got from Great Niagara. They like them because they are cheep and don't notice the poor quality or care if they don't always go off. They only shoot blank loads in them anyway. They were where I heard that they were rosewood. Jim had several damaged in shipment that guys were buying cheap to repair and use. They also take awful care of their guns. I built a gun for one reinactor and was sickened when I saw how neglected it was.
                                IHS,Turtle

[Mike Brooks]

Out of pure curiosity to see if it could be done I "rebuilt" one of these guns some years ago. It would have been easier to start from a blank.

[cmac]

Those blacksmiths need some knee pads! Mike does the pistol with the dog lock have an internal frizzen spring?

[Mike Brooks]

Yes, I believe it does...pretty incredible detail for the quality. The stock was made of some white colored wood that was as soft as pine. Some clever staining and it ended up looking like wally-nut.

[Curt Larsen]

Well, these photos were put up for folks to see and I figured Mike would go beserk.  No they are not quality by our current standards.  But it is just fascinating to see their work.  Just for added information I asked whether they made the screws for their locks.  They make their own hammer screws, but "buy the rest in the market."   With regard to what they use in the forge, it is charcoal.  There is lots of coal in India but I don't know what grade.  I know some of my old USGS colleagues did coal resource studies over there.  Frankly I was happy that they were willing to show me their operation.  If you go on their website you'll see some of the same people as in my photos.  I don't know about the use of rosewood.  Back when I was building classic guitars I did one with East Indian rosewood for sides and back.  It was pretty tough but worked and bent well.  I know that they do make a lot of furniture using their rosewood.  I was a little distressed by the piles of Enfields on the storeroom floor.  They obviously had good patterns to use for those.  Sort of reminds me of all the Nepalese Enfields and Baker riles that Atlanta Cutlery has been selling.  I don't think many folks like the Lee Enfield No 1s or No 4s that were built under British (?) supervision prior to and post WWII.  I will continue to get this video downloaded and posted.  I'm glad some of you have liked these photos 

[Mike Brooks]

Hey, I was no way near Berserker level.
 If I was there I would have loved to taken the tour as well, I would have had a million questions for them. I believe they have a fair grasp of what they are doing, they just need someone to teach them some refinement.
 I do thank you for posting the pics, very interesting.

[Hungry Horse]

 This reminds me of a friend that had a 12 gauge shotgun made in India, back when we were all shooting trap with blackpowder double guns. My gun was a Navy arms upland, with beautiful smooth tapered barrels, with chrome lined bores. His was all hand made, as the above pictures show. The outside contours of his guns barrels, looked for all the world like nicely blued chicken necks, because they had so many ridges in them. I admit I flinched every time he fired it. He shot that gun for years, and then traded it to a guy that shortened the barrels, and used it in Civil war re-enactments for a confederate cavalry weapon. As far as I know it is still working just fine. The only thing we ever replaced was the nipples, because they were bored straight through, and allowed the fired charge, to push the hammers to half cock, and spray the shooter with powder flash.

                  Hungry Horse

[zimmerstutzen]

My first flint rifle was a tc hawken with a pos soft frizzen that left me so frustrated I almost gave up on muzzle loading. Two frizzen replacements and it was still unreliable. An old timer helped me half sole the frizzen and then it would finally work.
So much for alleged American factory quality.
I currently have two Indian pistols. Sure as heck better quality than the Belgian $#@* Dixie peddled.

[Curt Larsen]

Well all this has been fun.  I can't help but think that many or most of us started building way back when Dixie started with their 25 page or so page catalog.  We've come a long way since then.  I certainly don't think much of their quality given what we have available now and I'm astounded by their prices.  My very first build back in the 60's was one of their Kentucky pistols with a precarve stock.  I searched around gun shows for a flint lock I could put on it.  Eventually found one that was too big and installed it.  It was a learning experience.  I gave it to my sister and her husband mounted on the wall of their place on Kentucky Lake.  I've learned a lot since then but still come up with problems that are solved by folks on our ALR site.  I'm still learning and will probably never come up to the work of Mike or Jim.  Nonetheless it is all worth it.

[Dphariss]

I am sure they were originally meant as wall hangers since actual guns in India must be proved. But the play war re-enactors started using them because they were cheap and somewhat resemble a Musket etc. from the time period so there are a lot of them around now.
I am sure that I could learn a lot from these guys in forging and filing and other things even if they are making really cheap guns for the really cheap market.  As I recall the barrels are substandard, I believe 2 have burst from shooting blanks from reports on the WWW.  Nor are the proved SFAIK.
Eventually someone will get hurt and of course it will be the fault of the person that loaded it for not loading it right....
But they are making a living making these things and this is important to them.
Cheap firearms are always junk. Be it a M3 "Greasegun" or a cheap ML.

Dan

[Captchee]

   Last I heard Dan , the ones that burst were shown to have  had obstructions .
 Whole big write up on it at one time over on the FF forum  with photos , and copies of the reports from the testing companies .
 But ½ dozen of one or the other as its not like there have never been any US made barrels burst .
 Compared to the numbers sold  , they don’t seem to being doing any worse then  the big name US firearms companies

 I did some research into the Indian made guns , some years ago . Even went so far as to speak with the head of the IOB  on the subject . Factually they have some very strict laws  which would  prevent most folks here from producing  the rifles we make .
 The loop hole however is that  one must make what they call a curiosity  , which then removes the  piece from government control as well as the Export / import laws .
It also means that the importer or end customer  must modify  the piece to make it functional . In other words there must be some type of reasonable expectation that  the piece was built to a given standard .

 Its also not just re-enactors that are purchasing these  as I have read of many folks and personally know a couple others who use them for hunting . In the end there are many different suppliers and a handful of different importers. Thus it would be best to know who your buying from .
 Also wonder  concerning  some of the remarks here  concerning the “correctness”
 Are they really that far off from the pre-carve  assemblies offered  by so many ?
  isn’t it rather hard to  support out standards when  they are not building using the tooling we do and we are not building  using the same standards they are  or for that mater in the same time constraints .

 Its sad to say  but I think  its much like all the rest of the industry in this country .
Spend some  money , train the people  to compete in our market  and  there is no reason they cant do what we do , do it cheaper and still be doing it at 4-5 X the average wage in their country ..

 I  also find it rather odd  that while  we all seem to agree that what they produce is sub standard , it doesn’t change the fact that they are producing those rifles in a way most of us don’t have  the capability or for that mater the knowledge of doing 

[Pete G.]

"Correctness" is in regard to the arms that were built to a pattern, usually the military muskets such as Enfields, Brown Bess, etc.
 Longrifles are a whole different story since they are a re creation of a hand built product, unless someone is attempting to make an exact copy of an existing gun, which is very difficult to pull off anyway. Even the old masters didn't build two guns the same. It makes very little difference if the builder started with a plank or a roughed out blank. Some of the worst guns I have ever seen were built from a plank. The builder didn't have enough experience and/or skill to get the architecture correct and the end result doesn't look like anything that someone could recognize. A lot of the stuff built back in the 50's and early 60's falls in this category. These days we have more reference materials and parts available, and better rifles result. If the "Golden Age of the Kentucky Rifle" was circa 1800, then we are surely in the "Platinum Age of the Kentucky Rifle".

[hammer]

Certainly the guns made in India and intended to be fired must be proofed there before being sold.  And their proof more than meets the high international agreed standards.  Those sold as curios are not drilled for percussion or flint and can be shipped pretty much anywhere without special export\import licences.  If, for instance in the UK, such a gun were converted to fire, application must first be made to have it added to a licence and it must then be proofed at the government approved Proof House.  If not proofed, it may be still be used by the owner at his/her risk (and anyone else nearby!).  But no insurance company will likely pay out on any injury or damage.  And no club is likely to allow it to be used.  And it is illegal to sell on an unproofed firearm unless a specific category of antique.   So you would have to be a fool to try it.   All sensible rules it seems to me. 
Of course it is bound to get a bit 'woolly' in the US where there are no such proof regulations.    That's all down to history, I guess.

[Daryl]

I bought one - non-drilled, thus never previously fired, nor proofed - that is how they were sold and how anyone in Canada can actually buy one of their handguns- no vent, not a firearm.  

I had to drill the vent hole - fired a few rounds, took it apart to see how well it was made, ie: pulled the breech plug, took a bunch of pictures, took some measurements, then reassembled it and sent it back & got a refund.  

The forend swivel screw was an oversized 8x32 in what seemed a 10x32 threaded hole. I was to find the breech plug was of quite similar quality.

From the outside, apart from the reddish non-water proof stain and finish which came off together as one mixture, it indeed looked like a Sea Service Brown Bess.  

The breech wall was slightly less than .1"- about .095" thick to the bore at the vent, then tapering down rather quickly towards the muzzle.

Only 3 threads were engaging on the breech plug (oversized 7/8" thread in an oversized threaded hole- ie: not standard and not metric, either - the barrel threads appeared to be very rough, but not hand filed, those 3 bearing threads had varying amounts of engagement, comes to mind - .005", .011" and .022"- just from memory. Those breech plug threads were in barrel threads running some .037" deep.  

I assume to prevent a LOT of blow-back/leakage around the threads, they incorporated a flash shield between the tang and barrel, .010" thick. This was part of the breech plug and tang and pressed against the back end of the barrel. This is what stopped the blowback of fouling from erupting from the back end of the barrel around the threads when it was fired. Very clever, but of course, even more scary.  

The threads were undercut at this "flashing", like some/most? guns smiths undercut modern rifle threads at the barrel's shoulder. The undercut (radial gouge) was approximately 3 threads in width, but running all the way around the flashing 360 degrees. When I pulled the plug, the barrel threads and this trough around the plug were packed hard with fouling. The flash -plate I will call it was actually a good fit against the rear of the barrel - good thing.

It was scary to behold - even scarier was the thought that I had fired it.  It sure was a good sparker - that much was good - that is, after I ground of the 1/16" deep (some almost 1/8" deep) cross grooving they'd cut across the face of the frizzen - I expect to 'catch' the flint?  The gun could not be fired without first grinding off the frizzen face's cross grooving as it would have simply disintegrated the flint first attempt to fire. It did have a good strong spring as well. 2 positives?

This lack of attention to detail should have been a warning to simply send it back, unfired, but no, I didn't do that. I still thank my Guardian Angle for sticking with me.

[Bob Roller]

Daryl,
You just described a shoulder fired pipe bomb.I had a half axxed representation of an 1803 Harpers Ferry and the beech plug fell out on the floor after 1 and 3/4 turns.The barrel appeared to be a casting around a mandrel and the rifling stopped about at the transition between octagon and round and picked up again in about 3 inches.The transition between octagon and round was made with a parting tool that cut a groove around the two.
It was made by some semi obscure Spanish or Italian maker and I sent it back with a note advising against sales of these rifles for any reason.

Bob Roller

[Captchee]

  I just finished putting  a new barrel on a  production piece  where the drilling had been off to the point  that only a little over ½ of the hole even had threads .
To top that of  when they aligned and counter bored  the ¼ inch hole  through the breech face and subsequent  bolster ,they went all the way through the bolster  and into the back of the plug  . Thus leaving  just under ¼ inch of  thickness to the back of the  plug .
  It wasn’t  made in India , Spain , Italy company either  .

 dont get me started on the chevy i once owned LOL


 Frankly I believe we will always have discussions like this , be they about what quality of steel to use for barrels , quality and correctness of locks ,,, what would should be use,,, who is proof testing  and who is not   or who is making the best items ………
 While these things are important to discuss , in the end it’s the consumer who will decide  what “They “ feel is important and at what level
 Right now the India made  items are filing a nitch  at a price that few  to none of us are willing to  work in.
 Maybe as in  past history , if we trash them long and hard enough , they will go away .
 But like in the past , something else will come along to fill that customer need . Thus the cycle will continue

[Captchee]

Correctness" is in regard to the arms that were built to a pattern,

LOL , Pete . one would think so .
spend enough time around  some folks and it sure seems like companies like Winchester , Colt , Marlin , Remington , couldn’t  even  reproduce their own models “correctly “

[blienemann]

Hey guys, especially you old timers and Hawken shooters from 30 years back.

Didn't Art Ressel and the Hawken Shop have some of their locks made in India - their "deluxe" lock?  Their phrase, not mine, no offense intended to Bob R, Ron Long who's a friend, etc.

Was helping clean and repair a pretty good, old half stock S Hawken recently, looked like mostly Hawken Shop parts, unmarked barrel, and lock with 3 small screws behind the hammer.  On the inside, she looked like a fine English lock, high quality, fine sear spring, etc. No name or initials.  I did not get a pic.

Have any of you seen these old locks, have one or pics of same?  And were they made in India.  Bob

[Jim Kibler]

I don't think anyone is "taking shots" at these Indian made guns.  I for one appreciate their hard work and there "make due" attitude under difficult conditions.  I think most everyone agrees with this.  So... I don't quite understand the strong desire to defend them.  There work is pretty low on the quality scale.  Just a fact...  Yes other companies outside of India offer similar quality, though this is not that relevant in my mind.  A very interesting post.

Thanks,
Jim 

[Bob Roller]

The 4 screw lock I saw was made in India and the tumblers were soft as were the sears.
The fancy bridle was nice  but the soft and narrow tumblers and sears plus a very deep cut for the fly told me and others that these locks were mostly cosmetic
I wish it had been a true quality lock.I think the Indian that was either making them or having them made tried to sell them to the Hawken Shop in the late 70's.

Bob Roller

[wmrike]

All that filing got me to thinking.  Are the barrels, locks, etc. actually made from steel, or just iron?

[Captchee]

 I don’t know that anyone is defending them Jim.
Surly not I .
 But I do think that  before we go into a long drawn out  discussion  where we point out  sub standard work  by our comparison. Yet seemingly ignore that same or worse work  in our own back yards .

 I will also admit that I have one of these Indian made pieces  .  it’s a 20 gage SXS I took it on trade  .
 Not one of the newer flintlocks , but one of the old ones that were actually built as a functioning piece
 It carried all the IOB proofing  marks , some 4 inches worth on each barrel . In  fact that’s what lead me to research  the Indian made guns as I had never seen some of the proofing marks before .
 To say its cheaply made would be an understatement. The stock I don’t know , seems to me that its some kind of weird Oak and its design is very modern .
  hardware is just simple, bent plate brass  with some stampings  in place of engraving
  Bores are rough  in that they appear to never have been finish honed .
 Locks function fine . In fact despite being  very basic , they are very strong .
 Id its quality however worse then  what has been done here in the US , no  im sorry , IMO to say so would be a falsehood .
 Im sorry if someone thinks im defending  something . Truthfully im not .