Author Topic: ?? on Ohio rifles  (Read 11386 times)

ottawa

  • Guest
?? on Ohio rifles
« on: November 14, 2014, 07:51:18 AM »
I have an original Ohio rifle  in 32 cal in percussion the question is were there any in flint ? my daughter likes the look of mine but wants one made in flint I have the stock, barrel installed. what would be the proper lock?. the hard part is it needs to be left handed. I wont be home till march or april after this deployment and would like to get the stuff to finish it. I haven't seen any in flint but you guys seem to have all the right info on this stuff was thinking a large Siler
Thanks Ben

Offline sz

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 648
Re: ?? on Ohio rifles
« Reply #1 on: November 14, 2014, 09:31:50 AM »
I have seen some very nice John Vincent style rifles made in flint.  I made one for a customer myself about 10 years ago. I am happy to undertake such projects.

I believe the older Vincent worked in the 1820s so it's probable that flintlock rifles were made by him.  (Anyone have any dates on the Vincent’s birth and death dates?)

On page 176 of "Kentucky Rifles and Pistols 1750-1850 there is an attributed Ohio rifle in flint.  The lock is small in the picture, but it looks similar to Chambers Late Ketland.

“Ohio rifle” is a very broad description, so it may be better to narrow it down a bit, but in a nut shell I’d say yes, flintlock Ohio rifles were made and so they could be re-made today with a base in historical accuracy if not in a documentary recreation.

ottawa

  • Guest
Re: ?? on Ohio rifles
« Reply #2 on: November 14, 2014, 04:41:35 PM »
the Original I have was built between 1850 and 1860 it is an A Ager more than that I cant add as I don't have access to it right now but thanks for the input
 

Offline Pete G.

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2013
Re: ?? on Ohio rifles
« Reply #3 on: November 14, 2014, 05:41:55 PM »
One of the reasons for building a gun is to get what you want. Sometimes that can lead to some odd combinations, but if you are building for your own satisfaction and/or use, it doesn't really matter.

That said, you wouldn't really want to get too far out in left field and build something that nobody else would want either.

Offline Gaeckle

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1352
Re: ?? on Ohio rifles
« Reply #4 on: November 14, 2014, 05:42:58 PM »
You need to check the site called the Association of Ohio long rifle Collectors and peruse thru that sight for some inspiration.

The Log Cabin Shop in Lodi, Ohio has a stellar collection of old original rifles built rigt here in Ohio........and they are most willing to share any info you seek and desire and they can guide you well in your next planned build. If you want info on your Ager rifle they can supply that also.

Google their websight. When you are back in the States, call them.

Offline moleeyes36

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1443
Re: ?? on Ohio rifles
« Reply #5 on: November 14, 2014, 10:15:31 PM »
Ottawa,

Talk to Smokinbuck here on the forum, he's quite knowledgeable about Ohio Rifles.  Mark put me on to the Association of Ohio Long Rifle Collectors awhile back and I joined.  He can tell you all about them as he's a very active member.  Here is their website http://www.aolrc.org/

Mole Eyes
Don Richards
NMLRA Field Rep, Instructor, Field Range Officer
NRA Chief Range Safety Officer

galudwig

  • Guest
Re: ?? on Ohio rifles
« Reply #6 on: November 15, 2014, 05:46:39 AM »
Definitely Check out the Association of Ohio Longrifle Collectors site.

http://www.aolrc.org/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2009/03/vol-i-no-1-aug-1979.pdf

Alexander Ager was located in New Rumley, Harrison Co., Ohio  (birthplace of Gen. George Armstrong Custer).

galudwig
« Last Edit: November 15, 2014, 05:54:07 AM by galudwig »

rhbrink

  • Guest
Re: ?? on Ohio rifles
« Reply #7 on: November 15, 2014, 03:21:31 PM »
Any one actually see a original flintlock Ohio half stock just curious?

RB

Offline Tim Crosby

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 18325
  • AKA TimBuckII
Re: ?? on Ohio rifles
« Reply #8 on: November 15, 2014, 04:18:13 PM »

ottawa

  • Guest
Re: ?? on Ohio rifles
« Reply #9 on: November 15, 2014, 04:47:22 PM »
I had some info on A Ager and it did talk about Custer hanging around the shop a lot. as for building what you want spot on my daughter is 14 she has been waiting for this rifle for 8years now she switched from a pink rifle with purple flowers to wanting a rifle with the tiger stripes like the ones at the log cabin I took her there when I went to meet Ian Pratt to pick up some pieces of curly maple for knife handle and show how I was doing on her rifle before I left he gave  me a nice curly maple stock for her. mine was better off in the fire place lol . I plan on taking the classes at the cabin as I live about 45min away and its a nice place to hang and my daughter likes going there with me.

galamb

  • Guest
Re: ?? on Ohio rifles
« Reply #10 on: November 15, 2014, 05:36:28 PM »
This is a couple of views of a James Teafe Jr. (a well known Ohio builder) half-stock, flintlock.

I had to dig through dozens if not hundreds of Ohio pics I have to find this.



Full-stock flintlocks could be considered common. Likewise, half-stock percussion are "common" - full stock percussion look to have been "un-common" and a half-stocked flinter is downright "rare" - at least based on the documented rifles which have survived.
« Last Edit: November 16, 2014, 02:28:31 AM by galamb »

rhbrink

  • Guest
Re: ?? on Ohio rifles
« Reply #11 on: November 15, 2014, 06:04:13 PM »
Thanks galamb, they must indeed be very rare. That is a nice looking rifle though about what I had in mind for my next build.

RB

jamesthomas

  • Guest
Re: ?? on Ohio rifles
« Reply #12 on: November 15, 2014, 08:52:52 PM »
 Galamb, Nice rifle! it sure does have a unique side plate on the rifle, I sorta like it, but then it kinda looks strange to be on a rifle, it looks more like something one would see on a Fowler.

galamb

  • Guest
Re: ?? on Ohio rifles
« Reply #13 on: November 16, 2014, 02:35:27 AM »
Odd that you would call the sideplate "unique".

Here is a couple more pics of Ohio's -

The first by a builder name Jordan (probably Jerman Jordan) the second by James McCammant (sometimes McCamment) - same sideplate - go figure..






There is a few more if I "dig" - I have pics of maybe 100-150 Ohio's..

galudwig

  • Guest
Re: ?? on Ohio rifles
« Reply #14 on: November 16, 2014, 07:08:48 AM »
I haven't seen any in flint but you guys seem to have all the right info on this stuff was thinking a large Siler.

IMHO a large Siler would be the wrong choice for an Ohio rifle.  There is an example of a fullstock flintlock Vincent in the Campus Martius Museum in Marietta, OH.  However, the consensus among the more schooled in the history and work of the Vincents is that the example on display was converted to flintlock; basically a "fantasy" gun.   



The lock in the gun is marked "Henry Parker Warranted."  Parker was a lock maker who supplied the gun building trade with flint and percussion locks, so it is possible that a flintlock like it would have been available when the John Vincent and Alexander Ager started building guns (late 1840's).  Regardless if the museum piece is real or not, you can see it has several features found on a manufactured, late period flintlock including a roller on the frizzen spring, a round-bottomed pan, and a rounded lock plate. 

While the large Siler is a fine lock, there are several other appropriate to period and style locks available to you.  If it were me, I would use either a Chambers (new style) Late Ketland, a Davis Late English, or an L&R Manton (in that order).  The "tip" found on the back end of the Chambers and L&R lock plates can easily be removed with a file in order to get that rounded look.

Good luck with your build, whichever direction you take!

galudwig

galamb

  • Guest
Re: ?? on Ohio rifles
« Reply #15 on: November 16, 2014, 05:46:04 PM »
Missed that part and agree with the above.

A Siler would look way out of place and totally wrong on an Ohio.

You want a (later) English style lock for sure. Ohio gunsmiths "mostly" came from "back east" and moved with the settlers as things headed west. Many had established shops in Pennsylvania, Virginia or Maryland before they set up shop in Ohio (and mostly in the very latter years of the Golden Age/birth of the cap era).

The L&R Late English which is supposedly based on an Ashmore uses exactly the same plate as the L&R 300 caplock (Leman Trade) and would be "more typical" of what you would see on an Ohio. If you perfer a Chambers lock I would suggest the Late Ketland would be also appropriate in some instances, particularly if you filed the tail round.

I would say that the majority of the locks on existing Ohio's are either Golcher's or Leman's of some description most because the majority of Ohio rifles were probably built as caplocks - the Ohio "era" was simply later along the line and flints were "out of style" before it really got into full gear.

I could dig out the notes but going from memory, the Vincent's shop notes indicate that they were restocking and converting about 3 to 5 rifles for every one that they were building. So if that's "indicative" of the average Ohio builder upwards of 75% of "their rifles" were simply restock/rework of rifle from back east with a new caplock from the hardware store slapped on the side.

(please don't take this as a rub against Ohio rifles - I love them - particularly the cap versions and have personally built a few)

Ohio was just "predominantly" the "land of cap guns" - most the of Germanic roots that any of the builders may have had were long faded along with the locks that the Siler looks like.

Of course, if you look long enough you may find one - just depends what you want.

Here is three more flinter's that I managed to dig out.




(I would only add, if you wanted to build a "representative" flintlock Ohio rifle I would definitely steer away from anything by the Vincents. While Track/Pecatonica etc have left the impression that a Vincent IS an Ohio, the Vincent's came to the game very late. John (the father) was primarily a farmer, secondly a cabinet maker and finally a gunsmith who produced "a few" rifles (on his own) beginning in 1848. Caleb the son was even later than that. For an earlier Ohio flint builders such as the Teafe's (4 of them) or Marker's (Sr/Jr) would be more correct to emulate. At best, a FLINT Vincent (and I believe that one posted above was original) would have been a "retro build" at best - certainly not the "flavour of the day" and may not be representative)


« Last Edit: November 16, 2014, 05:58:12 PM by galamb »

galudwig

  • Guest
Re: ?? on Ohio rifles
« Reply #16 on: November 16, 2014, 08:25:13 PM »
Ohio was just "predominantly" the "land of cap guns" - most the of Germanic roots that any of the builders may have had were long faded along with the locks that the Siler looks like.

I think galamb hit the nail on the head there.  The Log Cabin Shop has a vast collection of guns from all over Ohio.  However, virtually all of them are half-stock caplocks.  That kind of underscores the relative scarcity of Ohio-made flint rifles.  While I love the looking through the collection when I visit, the absence of flint rifles makes it a bit less interesting for me.
 
galudwig 

ottawa

  • Guest
Re: ?? on Ohio rifles
« Reply #17 on: November 17, 2014, 03:15:50 PM »
WOW! great info the more rounded lock was what I was thinking now to find it in a lefty and we have it made well a lot closer ;)  thanks again
Ben

rhbrink

  • Guest
Re: ?? on Ohio rifles
« Reply #18 on: November 17, 2014, 03:39:51 PM »
This has been a great thread and I too appreciate the information. The rifle pictured on reply #10 would work for me as this is about what I had in mind. I am building a rifle to use mostly in target competition it will have a Rice .40 cal barrel 15/16 X 38 inches long and to me a full stock just doesn't look that "right" on a barrel that short. Plus I'll be wiping between shots and a full stock is just a great place to trap moisture. Since it is a target rifle first it probably doesn't really matter but I do like to have my flinters at least be somewhat correct. Not totally HC-PC but pleasing to the eye and something that could have been built maybe. I do have a new Late Ketland, Chambers which I will file the tit off the back to give it the rounded look I always considered the projection on the back of lock plate ridiculous anyway plus a pain in the rear end to inlet.

RB

galudwig

  • Guest
Re: ?? on Ohio rifles
« Reply #19 on: November 18, 2014, 12:26:26 AM »
find it in a lefty and we have it made well a lot closer
Ben

Unfortunately the Chambers and the R.E. Davis locks only come in right hand versions.  The L&R Manton comes in a left hand version though:

http://www.lr-rpl.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=61:manton-model-1700-1800-1700p-1800p&catid=38:lar-locks&Itemid=61

So does their Late English:

http://www.lr-rpl.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=62:late-english-flint-lock-model-900-1000-900dt-1000dt&catid=38:lar-locks&Itemid=61

galudwig


Offline Shreckmeister

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3808
  • GGGG Grandpa Schrecengost Gunsmith/Miller
Re: ?? on Ohio rifles
« Reply #20 on: November 18, 2014, 12:59:51 AM »
I like the unusual sideplate that Teaff used.  Looks like his signature inlay. 
Rightful liberty is unobstructed action according to our will within limits drawn around us by the equal rights of others. I do not add 'within the limits of the law' because law is often but the tyrant's will, and always so when it violates the rights of the individual.