18th C Breech Threads - HDTDT

[JTR]

Let me add a few comments here. First being, and I'm sure Jim knows, that the old boys never threaded a breech with threads as fine as 20 per inch. I'd think most were closer to 12 or 14, maybe 15 per inch. Plus, none that I've taken apart were all that tightly fitted. Most breech plugs can be hand turned into the barrel up until the last half turn or so, then you'll need a wrench.
The same pertains to percussion drums, course threads and loosely fitted until the last bit.
 
I'm sure things tightened up during the industrial revolution, but before that, 'tight' meant something other than it does today.

John

[Jay Close]

I'm a bit late to this party, but Jim's thesis on threading is first rate. 

As the post is about period tradesman practice, it should be part of the record that the stock removal approach to making a breechplug would have seemed very odd 200 years ago. There is no doubt in my mind that a breechplug was forged to shape and the files and saws used in the finishing not the fundamental shaping. Forging is not only faster, but if approached with professional level skills will result in a stronger product with a more refined grain.

Jim's stuff about thread forming compares very well with my own experience making wrought iron nuts and bolts over the years at Colonial Williamsburg. Full marks from me on that one! And kudos for taking the time to record your practice.

[David R. Pennington]

Thanks again James for sharing.

[James Wilson Everett]

Guys,

Just finished a reproduction period breech plug screw plate.  I gave up on finding an original outside of the Smithsonian (do they even have one?)  Anyway, the tool is adapted from the large screw plate from the 18th c Wyke tool catalog.  Not an exact reproduction of the Wyke screw plate, but close in style.  This tool will cut the male threads that match the breech plug taps already shown in this topic.  Remember, longrifles are just a byproduct of really neat tools!

Jim



[

[Sawatis]

Wow! That's phenomenal work Jim.  Have you tried it out yet?..How's it perform?
John

[James Wilson Everett]

Guys,

I just found an 18th c threading tool very much like the one pictured in the Wyke catalog. The jaws included with the tool appear to make about a 3/8-14 thread.  These jaws are replaceable so other sizes can be made.  Here are photos of the tool.












Notice the punch marks on the tool to ensure that it is assembled correctly.  This one is very much like the number 349 tool in the Wyke catalog.  I am convinced that this one was owned by Jacob Dickert!!!

Jim

[rich pierce]

Amazing find!  Glad it found its way into your hands.

[Bill Paton]

Jim,
I’m not so sure about that being Jacob Dickert’s. It looks exactly like the one I watched Martin Myelin use for making the very first real honest-to-God genuine Kentucky rifle ever made.

Bill Paton

[JTR]

Wow Jim, that's very cool! Just go ahead and send it to me and I'll check it against the bolt threads in my rifle... And yeah, sort of get it,,, more or less right back to you! 

John

[WKevinD]

Every day something on this forum blows me away! I have no idea how i missed this thread before but shows the beauty of simplicity. Thanks!

[FDR]

Does this not qualify as a "tutorial"?  So much good information and "how too".

[Mark Elliott]

I think this and the lock making thread should both be tutorials.   I am treating them as such.   Actually,  that goes for just about everything Jim posts.   He needs to write a big book on building a longrifle the hard way.  If he doesn't, maybe I will if I live long enough.   

[David R. Pennington]

I want the first autographed copy of that book if we can get Jim to right it.

[Sawatis]

I want the first autographed copy of that book if we can get Jim to right it.

Absolutely!  Put me down for 2

[JCKelly]

Forging to shape rather than machining everything has been used by some companies in our (well, my) lifetime. Nicholson file used to forge the tangs on their files up to about 1980. At this time they began to simply blank them out & discard the scrap.

Mr. Wilson I sure do agree with you that these tools are meant to form threads in nice, soft wrought iron. The cold drawn 12L14 used today for barrels has much higher tensile strength but negligible ductility.

Would it be too cynical of me to suggest that someone here will try your tool design on a modern 12L14 barrel and then complain that they don't work?

[James Wilson Everett]

Guys,

Here is another 18th c tool that would make the larger threads for a breech plug.  The tool overall length is about 16.5 inches.  The three sizes of the threads are about 0.75-10, 0.62-12, 0.56-12.  This one is unmarked except for some strange punch marks and lines of unknown meaning.





This tool is very similar to the reproduction tool used at the Colonial Williamsburg armory shop as seen in the photos, below.





Tools like this would not be too difficult to make as reproduction shop tools.

Jim

[James Wilson Everett]

Guys,

Here is another 18th c thread making tool.  This one is large, about 18 inches long.  The metal near the thread forming holes appears to be inset steel, while the majority of the tool is wrought iron.  This is very similar to the construction of the Colonial Williamsburg reproduction.  The wing nut is really neat and early looking, however the male threads on the tightening post are worn away until the threads no longer engage, a lot of use here.  The three thread sizes are approximately 0.50 - 16TPI, 0.42 - 12TPI, 0.38 - 14TPI.  That's right, the largest size appears to have the finest threads.  The tool also has a vertical post at the end of one handle, I surmise that this was to make the rotation of the tool quicker and easier for the operator.





Since this tool is so very similar to the previous tool, it appears to be a common pattern in the 18th c tooling.

Jim

[Mark Elliott]

Jim,

Where do you find these tools?   

[James Wilson Everett]

Mark,

As they say, "when it rains, it pours".  All three of these tools came from E-Bay.  I have been looking for such 18th c tools for many years with little success, then suddenly they appear.  The first two were very inexpensive, surely the seller had no idea of their rarity or value.  The last one was sold at an appropriately higher price, as I am sure the seller knew what it was.  However, searching for such tools on E-Bay is difficult as the sellers do not know what to call them.  The first tool, the refined one, was listed as a "machinist die & handle", the second was listed as a "die pipe thread cutter" and the third as a "bolt threader".  I am tempted to make an operating reproduction like I did for the Wyke tool earlier this year. 

Mark, I KNOW you want to make one of these!  Let me know if you want the detailed measurements.

Jim

[hudson]

I have a thought or should I say a question. Concerning tightness of fit fore breach plugs. If the fit is slightly lose The face of the plug would better align with the face in the barrel when tightened down. In talking to a gentleman that at Friendship who built long range bullet rifles he preferred a slightly lose fit.

[Mark Elliott]

Yes,  I am going to want to make one eventually.   You might as well send me the particulars to add to my list of tools to make.   I have two guns to finish, then I can concentrate on getting all these tools made.   

[James Wilson Everett]

Hudson,

Working with the original wrought iron is quite a bit different than working with modern materials.  Wrought iron is so very much more ductile than modern steels, almost three time more ductile than the modern M.L. barrel material of 12L14.  So it is really a whole lot easier to get a very tight seal between the breech plug face and the barrel bore shoulder.  The two surfaces sort of "mush" or "squash" together and make a tight seal.  (I believe these are the correct technical terms!)  The modern stuff simply does not act this way, and is a lot more difficult to make a simultaneous, firm contact at both the barrel end and the bore end.  Once you work with the correct material, you lose much admiration for modern steel.  My opinion, of course.

Jim

[James Wilson Everett]

Guys,

Here are some photos of another of this type of threading tool or screw plate.  The three original tools shown above in this topic were bought at reasonable prices.  This last one went on E-Bay for well over $300, I bid on it but it was well above what this poor missionary was willing to pay.  Although, it is worth this high price in my opinion.  Anyway, here is another 18th century tool, certainly Jacob Dickert had a tool just like these.

Jim

[lentuk]

I cant resist, this is a great thread.....

[P.W.Berkuta]

Jim - what type of metal are those tools made of - they can't be all wrought iron? How did they cut the threads into the tools in the first place, male & female? Were the tools case hardened? Were the tools made by the individual gunsmith or were they mass produced (?) as in a cottage industry? Great thread your did - I thoroughly enjoyed it.