knowin' black powder when I see it?

[retired fella]

I really enjoy this forum.  I have been playin' with BP since 1972 exclusively.  No modern stuff.  After reading some horror stories back on pages 20 some about mishaps I got to thinking.  Is there a way to identify BP from modern?  Mistakes do happen and that is one mistake I don't want to make.

[WadePatton]

Not all of it just at a glance, but also yeah, most of it (the new stuff) looks different. Little regular shapes either flakes(some with specific colors), spherical-ish (varies) mostly sorta round, or little stick-like granules. Also is usually lighter in color.  

All i can remember right off hand-haven't loaded (bleeps) in a few years but have all my life. There may be some that are less different, and that's why one should not ever use anything he's not 100% sure of for anything but fireworks.

[galamb]

Yep - easy way - my BP cans are RED and say GOEX and my smokeless cans are Light or Dark BLUE and say IMR  

More seriously though, I can't really see a whole lot of difference if a little is spilled on a flat surface, unless I look super close with my reading glasses on.

For that very reason I have two different powder lockers and if one is unlocked the other absolutely isn't. You can never be too careful.

[retired fella]

Thank you all for your thoughts.  Can only imagine 50 gr of smokeless in a ML.  It would sure ruin my day.

[Mad Monk]

I really enjoy this forum.  I have been playin' with BP since 1972 exclusively.  No modern stuff.  After reading some horror stories back on pages 20 some about mishaps I got to thinking.  Is there a way to identify BP from modern?  Mistakes do happen and that is one mistake I don't want to make.

If you are talking about identifying black powder versus smokeless powders there is a very easy way.

Black powder breaks down in water and smokeless does not.  The charcoal and sulfur, in black powder, are not water-soluble.  The potassium nitrate is.  Smokeeless powders are soluble in acetone, black powder is not.

Now when looking at black powder versus the subs it gets a bit more complicated but not all that difficult.  When I look at BP subs I use water to break some down.  One I had to use acetone.  that told me that sub was based on smokeless with some additives to tone it down and act more like BP.

Mad Monk

[hanshi]

Smokeless also smells (for me) quite different from black.

[hammer]

Couldn't be easier.   If you're not 200% sure what it is, don't use it.  If it isn't clearly labelled flush it away.  Whether blackpowder or smokeless.   No confusion then.  Life is too short to risk shortening it any further.  Worse still, shortening someone else's.

[Hawken62_flint]

If you don't know or can't tell, like someone else said, don' t use it.  Here is an almost tragic story that happened 2 years ago.  I work part-time in a muzzleloading shop and the Saturday before the opening of muzzleloader season, I fellow walked thru the door with his muzzleloader and said that he couldn't get it to fire (it was a side-hammer percussion rifle).  Said he had gone to Wally World and asked for black powder and then went home and loaded up 100 grains and a ball, but after several caps, he couldn't get it to go off.  I asked him if he had the powder with him and he said yes.  So I asked him to bring it in and it was a can of IMR 4064.  He had asked for black powder at a chain store and it was black.  I explained to him how lucky he was that it didn't go off and then we pulled the ball and dumped the 4064 out and got him a can of Goex.  Tragedy averted because his #11 cap wasn't quite hot enough to set it off or his drum was clogged---anyway he was one lucky guy.

[rhbrink]

I had something happen years ago I walked into a local gun store and ask if they had any black powder? There was a young man behind the counter and said yep they had lots of it. All that I could see was modern smokeless powder so I informed him that was smoke less at which point he picked out a can opened it and showed it to me "See It's Black"! I did my best to try to explain the difference but could see that was a waste of time and this fellow could care less. I just hope that it didn't end up in of those ka-boom stories.

RB

[retired fella]

again I thank you all for your input.  I only use bp.  My thoughts are along the line if you buy what is labeled BP how do you know that it actually is?  Packaging error maybe??  Been doin' this since 1972 so I'm not a total nubie.  Just sayin'.

[Hungry Horse]

 REALLY!!!! For heaven sake, just put a pinch on the ground, and touch a match to it. If it flashes, its black powder. If it burns in a hot flame its smokeless. I demonstrated this for years in a hunters safety class. Many newbies get started because they want to hunt another season, but know nothing about blackpowder, and muzzleloaders, which leads to accidents.

                    Hungry Horse

[Daryl]

again I thank you all for your input.  I only use bp.  My thoughts are along the line if you buy what is labeled BP how do you know that it actually is?  Packaging error maybe??  Been doin' this since 1972 so I'm not a total nubie.  Just sayin'.

Simply looking at it should tell you what it is. There is no visual similarity to anyone who has used both. I do not understand how anyone could not tell the difference.

If you still don't know, do the burning test like HH notes above, first with smokeless - with shotgun powder, with pistol powder, rifle powder- whatever, then with black powder - THAT should do it if simply looking at it doesn't work for you.

[retired fella]

thank you daryl and hungry horse.  that is exactly what I was looking for.

[mark esterly]

i know shotgun powder that I've used is flat flakes.   block powder is granules

[Daryl]

Most smokeless powders are uniform in shape within any given powder number or name, ie: Bullseye, H4227, IMR 4350, AA 2230, VV133, etc - and as The Mad Monk, says, they will not dissolve or break down in water.

Smokeless shapes are disks, disks with holes, disks or different colour, sticks- ie: tubular usually with a tiny hole through the middle, stcks of different colour and length from very shot to quite long, also little round (spherical) and/or flattened balls called ball powder or spherical powder.

Black powder is all different shapes and sizes within reason within each sample. It is angular, never evenly or similarly shaped, unless you call irregular, evenly shaped.

There is no comparrison, really, they are so visually different.

Using smokeless powder in a muzzleloader can be very injurious to you, your gun and also the people around you who will be quite happy, if they survive the occurrence, to sue you into poverty.

Yes - I know, Savage Arms built an in-line bolt action muzzleloader they sold as being used with smokeless powder. Seems to me, the load was also a seemingly small charge of large pistol/small rifle powder they suggested, Hodgdon's H110, I think it was.   I seem to recall a few of them blowing up through the use of an inappropriate smokeless powder, or amount of smokeless powder.  

Some people do not know the difference between a weighed and stricken measure & telling them will not do any good.

See - even an in-line, bolt action ML designed to be used with smokeless can blow up if someone stupid loads it.

[smylee grouch]

Good point hungry horse, I have been demonstrating that in Hunter safty class for a long time too. I used H870, a slow burning smokless. Just about everyone there is fooled into thinking the black powder is more powerfull but when you explain and demonstrate how the smokless keeps on building presure as that flame rises they start to understand.

[Frizzen]

You could always taste it.

[Mick C]

Couldn't be easier.   If you're not 200% sure what it is, don't use it.  If it isn't clearly labelled flush it away.  Whether blackpowder or smokeless.   No confusion then.  Life is too short to risk shortening it any further.  Worse still, shortening someone else's.

ABSOLUTELY!!! 

[Mad Monk]

You could always taste it.

That has me laughing.

There were/are a number of ascorbic acid based powders.  Then Clear Shot was based on fruit sugar.  Never tried it in coffee though.

Mad Monk

[Frizzen]

I am not kidding. You can blindfold me and let me taste smokeless powder, black, and
subs and I bet I can tell you which one is black powder.