Brazing brass to brass to fill a void?

[Blacktail]

Today I finished inletting the butt plate on a Chambers English rifle. When I tried to drill the first screw hole the bit wandered and the hole was half done before I saw what was going on. So now I've got something new to learn.

I've done some research but I'm unfamiliar with the heating equipment mentioned. It looks like I'll have to fit a small cylindrical piece into the hole, and then braze that piece in so I can make another attempt at drilling a correct hole. Can I do this with a propane soldering torch, flux, and brass wire?

[docone]

You can easily do it with a propane torch. You will need a 2 X 6 some Borax, found at Walmart, and some brazing rod.
Put the piece to be brazed on the 2 X 6, heat a little, apply flux on the flint to be brazed, hopefully some brass will be in the hole, heat up the entire piece on the  2 X 6, then concentrate the heat on the brazing. Hold the propane torch upside down with a flame about 1.5 ". Should not quite roar. Shouldn't take much to do it. You can get brazing rod in the Hardware store, or Home Depot. You want the thin stuff, I prefer .032 to braze with. I also silver solder with .032.
When done, put in a mix of Pool PH Reducer and water. Go heavy on the PH Reducer. Heat that to almost boil. Drop in the piece. Do not let anything Iron get in the mix. It will turn the mix into a plating solution. Copper everywhere!
Remove, after about 10mins, and rinse.
Admire, or redo, or file. Polish to perfection.
That is what I do. You might get brazing rod, and practice on an old brass hinge, or something like that first. If the 2 X catches fire, sprinkle Borax on it. Brass, copper, and silver needs back heat with a propane torch. I have done this for years and it does ok. I have even repaired CVA Brass pieces this way. That stuff melts lower than regular brass, but, it repairs well if you go with caution on the heat. I did a trigger guard like that. Melted a brass machine screw in the hole, and then used a brazing rod. The trigger guard melted to the machine screw, the brazing rod filled it out and matched the colour of the guard. Still use it today. Never cracked again.
Good luck. It is harder to melt than you think. Lots of brass there to be an heat sink. Heat the whole thing, then concentrate the flame on the brazing area. Watch the colour to braze with.

[Mark Elliott]

The problem with brazing brass is that you might end up with a puddle of melted brass.   It has happened to me before when I made assumptions about what I had that were wrong.  Generally,  you need to use a brazing rod or silver solder that has a lower melting temp than the work piece or the last solder used.   Frequently,  there is only 50 degrees F between the hardness of silver solder.   It can be very tricky stuff to do when you have base metal or solder very close together in melting temp.   The real unknown is the exact composition of the brass butt piece you are trying to fix and its melting point.  You know what you have with a brazing rod or solder, but not the butt piece. 

It it were me,  I would fill the hole  using a rivet.   I do the same thing with lock plates when I have to move a screw hole.    I would drill through the smallest size hole you can and counter sink each side slightly.  Then make a rivet with a piece of matching color brass to fill the hole.   The rivet need not be much more than 1/16" longer than the hole   Anneal both the butt piece and the rivet by heating to a dull red and allowing to cool.   You can quench both once they have gone black.  Now, backing the rivet and butt piece on an anvil (or suitable replacement)  pien the rivet over with a large ball pien hammer.   If the rivet seems to be hardening up before the hole is filled tight,  anneal the whole thing again.  If there is any doubt, anneal!  You don't want to risk work hardening the brass and cracking it.

[Blacktail]

Thanks gents, both options seem to have valid points. Do I need silver solder? I thought all I needed was the brass piece, more brass, and flux.

Mark, when you rivet, what does the seam look like? I could make a rivet pretty easily with a brass screw. It might be a problem if the new hole has to go through half original metal and half rivet.

[bgf]

I modified a cast brass trigger guard for a friend last year, and part of the job was done by tapping 8-32 hole through two parts and inserting a brass screw from Lowes.  The back of the repair was countersunk slightly to allow flux and solder to flow, with heat to the show side.  After a little filing, I couldn't even see the screw or microscopic solder line around it.  You might not even need the solder, just insert the screw and peen both sides before filing.

[Mike Brooks]

I'd use soft solder for the fix, I've done it before. Chances are after you drill your new hole and counter sink it the old screw up will be completely . No reason to get over complicated with this sort of stuff.
The rivet would  work too, I'd solder afterwords.

[E.vonAschwege]

Soft solder as Mike suggests will work fine to fill a misdrilled hole.  I usually use "easy" silver solder as it melts at a low enough temperature for a single propane torch to take care of most the time.  Tap the hole and thread a piece of brass with borax flux into it, then peen it on both sides into a slight countersink.  Heat the whole affair with the torch and add silver solder, it will fill the microscopic seam between the two pieces of brass and once filed off it will be invisible. 

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

...and when you redrill, centre punch the hole, pilot drill with a SHARP 1/16" drill bit, and follow with your clearance drill bit.

[Blacktail]

Thanks for the help boys, I'll look around the local stores and see what solders and brass screws are available. I have no idea why the bit wandered as it did, it was a brand new one.

[Acer Saccharum]

Brass is hard to machine accurately by hand. Even drilling by machine, you must give the drill a nice center drilling first, or the drill can wander.

[Mark Elliott]

Being that brass is relatively soft,  If you pien the rivet tightly to the base metal,  you won't see the joint when you file.   Don't worry about redrilling.  I move screw holes in lock plates all the time with this method.  You are hard pressed to find evidence of it; and the new holes hold screws just fine.   As Mike said,  it might not hurt to flow a little soft solder in if it will go.   

[Curt Larsen]

I had a similar problem on a buttplate.  I had drilled a pilot hole 1/8" and it was 1/16 or a little more away from wheree I wanted it.  I had some 1/8" pins for knife handles around my shop.  I cut a short piece and inserted it and peened the hole closed, filed it down and redrilled in the right spot.  It came out fine and the countersunk screw head covered the plugged  miss drilled hole.  Sometimes when I miss drill I'll tap the hole and screw in a small segment of screw, peen it, file and drill again.  I've mostly done this on holes for the tang bolt.  The others have suggested various solder techniques and they work fine.

[Mark Elliott]

Another note.  Given that butt pieces are never perfectly symmetrical when you finish with them,  the screw holes almost never end up looking like they are centered correctly.   It changes depending on how you look at them.   The way I drill butt pieces is to file them up so that they are ready to inlet; as square and symmetrical as possible.   Then I use a scale to mark and punch the center of the screw holes centered on the butt or the flat of the heel extension.   I then drill the holes on the drill press using a block of wood to allow me to position the buttpiece so that the drill bit is perpendicular to the surface of the butt piece at the point of the bit with either the heel extension or butt in line with the bit.  If you have filled the mating surfaces correctly,  the butt piece should sit on the block properly.   I dill the hole and countersink at the same time right on the drill press.   This whole process is quick and easy on the drill press,  much harder on the gun using a hand drill.    I don't worry if the hole drifts a little bit.  It will fix that with a file when final shaping the butt stock.  

[Mike Brooks]

And, may I add.....I have several antique guns with holes drilled off center, some way off center. Didn't seem to be a problem in the 18th century.  I think we get over stressed about small things these days.

[Blacktail]

Those are good points. It made me grumpy when I did it and now looking at it drives me crazy. Fixing it will be a good opportunity to learn something new.

[kentucky bucky]

I've also noticed that a lot of old originals have a lot more off-centered things compared to contemporary guns. They didn't sweat something being a few hairs off center or asymmetrical.....I guess they didn't expect things to be perfect like we are used to.

[Pete G.]

And, may I add.....I have several antique guns with holes drilled off center, some way off center. Didn't seem to be a problem in the 18th century.  I think we get over stressed about small things these days.

They were not used to perfectly symmetrical machine-made parts like we are. Of course they also were not used to three solid meals a day and central heat and air.

My wife once asked that if I could go back in history to live, which time would I choose.

My answer: Nothing previous to air conditioning and penicillin.

[Bob Roller]

And, may I add.....I have several antique guns with holes drilled off center, some way off center. Didn't seem to be a problem in the 18th century.  I think we get over stressed about small things these days.

They were not used to perfectly symmetrical machine-made parts like we are. Of course they also were not used to three solid meals a day and central heat and air.

My wife once asked that if I could go back in history to live, which time would I choose.

My answer: Nothing previous to air conditioning and penicillin.

That's fer sure,fer dern sure.The Good Old Days are a figment at best and a sanitized dream of what we once wished for.

Bob Roller

[Sawatis]

And, may I add.....I have several antique guns with holes drilled off center, some way off center. Didn't seem to be a problem in the 18th century.  I think we get over stressed about small things these days.

They were not used to perfectly symmetrical machine-made parts like we are. Of course they also were not used to three solid meals a day and central heat and air.

My wife once asked that if I could go back in history to live, which time would I choose.

My answer: Nothing previous to air conditioning and penicillin.

That's fer sure,fer dern sure.The Good Old Days are a figment at best and a sanitized dream of what we once wished for.

Bob Roller

Sad but true...but maybe, just maybe it will inspire us to have the values that we think it used to be...
John

[Blacktail]

So here are my thoughts after dwelling on this for awhile:

Originally I was inclined to try the rivet and peen method. It seemed that if I screwed up the error would be less profound. Then I realized there's no anvil for 100 miles around and even if there was I'd need to do some dremel work to clean up the inside surface in order to clear my inletting.

Now I think brazing it will be. I found I can take the post from the brass thumb piece casting that came with the rifle and with a little filing make a good plug for the hole. Between that little piece and some brazing rod I think there's a good chance everything will work out.

I'll post some pictures if it turns out....

[Mike Brooks]

I'd need to do some dremel work to clean up the inside surface in order to clear my inletting.

Inleting doesn't have to be that tight under a buttplate......or under anything else for that matter.

[WadePatton]

So here are my thoughts after dwelling...Then I realized there's no anvil for 100 miles around and even if there was I'd need to do some dremel work to clean up the inside surface in order to clear my inletting...

Stop dwelling and start doing.  Anvil?  There's no anvil in my shop but I peen lots of stuff.  I do have a nubbin of RR track, but my machinist vise handles the light work-which brass and copper tend to be.  

Get after it and learn something.  Eventually the booboo gets smaller.  Deciding when it is acceptable can be the hardest part.  

[T*O*F]

Between that little piece and some brazing rod I think there's a good chance everything will work out.

You don't need any filler rod.  Make your plug fit very tight and leave metal standing proud on both sides of the plate.  Lightly clamp vise grips fore and aft of your plug to act as heatsinks.  Use the smallest tip you have with the smallest pinpoint flame.  Keeping the flame localized, flow the two pieces together.  File the lumps off.  Easy peasy!!!

This assumes you have an oxy/acetyl torch.  If it's propane....forget it and do it the other way.

[Blacktail]

The first attempt was a total failure. I tried practice with some scrap pieces and the propane torch wouldn't even melt the brazing rod. The best it could do was get to a cherry red and make it slump a little. Lame.

I'll next try drilling a hole and peening a rivet. I just have to find something to beat the thing against.

[kutter]

Take a piece of steel rod ,,about 1/2"d or larger,,and lock it in the bench vise so it's standing upright. If the lower end sets on the vise's arm in the center all the better for support.
It need not be too high off the vise. The lower the better actually to keep it sturdy and from flexing and vibrating.
The upper end of that rod will be your anvil. Knock the sharp edge off of the rod if you think you might tilt the work during the process and dig into the backside of it.

Take the brass plug you have and peen one end of it over slightly to form a 'head',,mushroom it slightly.
Then insert the plug into the hole from the backside of the plate so that formed head butts up against the back of the plate.
Flip the plate over and peen the top of the rivet into the countersink on the face of the plate while holding the backside firmly on to your anvil.
Rivet the material in place evenly and smoothly to get a nice tight fit.

If the rivet on the backside protrudes a touch and hits the wood,,carve the wood away with a gouge or carving knife to clear it.
File the face of the plate & rivet smooth and level.

Re-mark and redrill the new screw hole.