Powders Tested in a .45 GRRW Leman and a .45 Flintlock, with Pyrodex & Triple 7

[Herb]

I built a .45 Leman Trade Rifle at the Green River Rifle Works in 1978.  This was in a class in Antique Custom Riflesmithing taught by Greg Roberts, production manager.  I may give this rifle to my greatgrandson Trenton, 14, in Hawaii.  He wants to hunt wild pigs and really wants a .45 flint Lancaster I built.  I do not know if real blackpowder is available in Hawaii, and some is necessary to shoot a flintlock with Pyrodex or Triple 7 powders, available there.  I asked his dad to see if they can buy real black powder there.  If not, I can give him this percussion rifle if he wants it, which can use Pyrodex or Triple 7.  So I tested these powders in comparison to black powders so I can advise him how to use them.  I will post these results  in separate posts.

I used .440 Hornady balls and various patches, lube always Murphy Oil Soap and alcohol.  Primers were CCI 11 with a Hot Shot nipple, necessary for the Pyrodex and Triple 7 powders.  I shot at 50 yards from bench through my Oehler 35P chronograph, plotting each shot and finding the patch if I could.

Pyrodex and Triple 7 and Swiss need strong patches and I tested several.  There was JoAnn .007 (crushed reading) linen (too loose a weave), JoAnn .012  linen (too thick for this ball and bore), OxYoke .015 (which mikes .012 but compresses to .0065) which worked very well.  Also some of my other linen patches which worked best.  Some powders needed overpowder wads (OPW) which I cut from wool.  I used weight-corrected measures for 35 grains of Goex 3F and Olde Eynsford 3F and the same 70 grain measure (made from a fired 7mm Rem Mag case) for Goex 3F, 2F, OE 3F, OE 2F, OE 1 1/2F, Pyrodex P and RS.  I also used it for Triple 7 3F and 2F but later made a 50 grain (Goex 2F) measure for them.  More on that later.  I did not have Swiss 3F, but Swiss 2F and 1 1/2F needed their own measures.  The 70 grain Goex 2F measure held 79.3 grains of Swiss 1 1/2F!

On Target 1, I started with 35 grains of Goex 3F and a JoAnn linen that miked .012 but compressed to .007.  The weave was too thin and it is not a good patch  One blew, velocity 1395 fps.



On Target 2 I used this patch with 35 grains of Olde Eynsford 3F and all patches blew.  1490 fps.  Then I went to an .009 super muslin and four averaged 1379 but all patches blew.  I have not yet shot a good group with OldeE. 3F in any caliber and do not like it.  On the same target I went to 70 grains of Goex 2F, trying 3 patches.  I used 35 and 70 grains because those are what this rifle liked when I built it 35 years ago.

Target 3 was 70 grains of Goex 2F and the .015 OxYoke, which really mikes .012 on the ratchet and crushes to .0065.  I was surprised at how well this patch worked.  OxYoke is now Eastern Maine Shooting Supplies.  Velocity 1737 fps, and this was my bench mark for comparison of other powders.  Target 7 was ditto but 70 grains of Goex 3F.  One patch holed, 1820 fps.



Target 6 was ditto but 70 grains of Olde E. 3F.  Two of three patches blew, 1965 fps velocity on good patch.  Target 11 was 70 grains of OE 3F with JoAnn .012 linen.  First shot missed the target!  Then I went to a linen that mikes .014 but crushes to .007, a very good patch.  After the second shot with this, used an OPW.  Velocity 1873.



Target 4 is 70 grains of OE 2F and an OxYoke patch.  1829 fps, a good powder.  Target 12 is 70 grains of OE 1 1/2F, and my .014/.007 linen.  Cleaning patch on the seater jag.  1824 fps.  Very good accuracy.



Target 13 was 70 grains (weight-corrected new measure) of Swiss 1 1/2F and the .007 linen, no OPW, cleaning patch on seating jag.  All good patches.  1736 fps.  Target 14 was ditto except I used an OPW.  Velocity was 1768, 32 fps faster, accuracy the same.



Target 15 was 70 grains of OE 3F with a Teflon patch, 018/.011.  Tight to load.  Cleaning patch on seater jag, no fouling problem.  Again, powder no good in this rifle.
Target 16 was 70 grains of "Swiss 2F" that I got from someone, repackaged in a Goex can.  I think it might me mixed.  First three shots with JoAnn .018/.012 linen, had to hammer the short starter.  Blew patches, one at 1927 fps.  This could be a good patch but it too thick for this ball and bore.  Shots 4, 5 and 6 were from a new can of Swiss 2F, 70 grains of a weight-corrected measure, same JoAnn patch.  1949 fps.   Good accuracy.  Cost me $30 per pound?



In summary, OxYoke (now Eastern Maine) .015 patches worked very well, though some powders require an OPW with any patch.  70 grains of Goex 3F was 83 fps faster than Goex 2F.  Olde Eynsford 2F was 92 fps faster than Goex 2F, but about the same as Goex 3F, OE 1 1/2F and Pyrodex RS.  I'll break off here and come back with Pyrodex and Triple 7, then the flintlock.

[Herb]

Now to Pyrodex and Triple 7.  Target 5 is with the 70 grain Goex 2F measure used for Pyrodex RS.  All good patches, velocity 100 fps higher than Goex 2F at 1834 fps.  A good group.
Target 8, 70 grains same measure with  Pyrodex P.  First shot with an .013 GI fatigue shirt patch which tore.  Then .018/.009 super muslin, patches also blew.  Shots 6-12 with .015 OxYoke, first two blew, then used an OPW for 8-12.  Velocity 1965.  Needs a better patch.  With this powder, some shots give high velocity, like #9 at 2123 fps, but shoot right in the group.  Or low velocity.  The loads are consistent with about 0.3 grain variation in weight in 10 shots, so I don't know why the velocity spread occurs.  It does no harm.



Target 9 is with the 70 grain Goex 2F measure but Triple 7 3F and a wool OPW.  All good patches, 2121 fps, a good group.  Target 10 is ditto but Triple 7 2F at 2067 fps, all good patches, not as accurate.



I used 70 grains for a common measure with all powders, including Pyrodex P and RS.  Hodgdon says to reduce the volumetric charge of Triple 7 2F and 3F by 15 percent to equal black powder velocity.  So I used a measure that held 50 grains of Goex 3F and 2F (based on previous testing) to measure Triple 7 2F.  That velocity was 1757 fps, the same as 70 grains of Goex 2F, but the charge weighed only 38.8 grains.

Hodgdon has a Basic Muzzleloading Manual where they list a top charge of 60 grains of Pyrodex RS with a .45 patched round ball at 1926 fps.  They do not list any roundball load with Pyrodex P.  But they also show 100 grain charges of Pyrodex P and RS with 150, 180, 225 and 240 grain bullets at up to 2136 fps.  My .440 roundballs weigh about 128 grains.

With Triple 7 their top load listed for a .45 round ball is 60 grains of 2F at 1926 fps (sound familiar?).  This is a black powder bulk volume measurement, not weight.  But they list equal top loads of T7 2F and 3F of 100 grains with bullets/sabots of 150 to 240 grains, up to 2235 fps.  The T7 bottle lable shows a .45 load of a 150 grain Knight RedHot (whatever that is) with 100 grain volume at 2295 fps.  Their charges are exactly the same for Pyrodex P, RS, Triple 7 3F and 2F, each maxing at 100 grains.  The Lyman Black Powder Handbook and Loading Manual, Volume 2, has top charges of 120 grains of Pyrodex P nd RS.

On Target 17 I shot two shots of T7 2F with the 70 grain Goex 2F measure, got one reading of 2029 fps.  Then I used a measure that holds 50 grains of Goex 2F to measure the Triple 7 2F (38.8 grains actual weight).  That gave 1757 fps, exceeding the 1737 fps velocity of 70 grains of Goex 2F.



For those who complain about the high cost of Triple 7 granular powder, here is what it really costs to equal the velocity of 70 grains weight/volume of Goex 2F.  Triple 7 costs $27 per pound here.  27 divided by 7000 grains per pound equals .003857 cents per grain.  Multiply that by 38.8 grain weight of charge to get .1496 cents per shot, or $14.96 per 100 shots.  Fill in your own black powder cost per pound, including the hazmat fee if you had to pay it.  I got Goex at Fort Bridger for about $16 per pound.  Divide $16 by 7000 grains to get .0022857 cents per grain.  Multiply that by 70 to get .16 cents per shot or $16 per hundred.  About a dollar more expensive per 100 shots than an equal velocity charge of Triple 7.

So that is the caplock rifle.  Again, the purpose of the testing was to demonstrate the use of Pyrodex and Triple 7 powders so that Trenton can use this rifle in Hawaii, if he wants it.  For those that simply have to complain about these powders, I thought they smelled like burning chicken feathers, with my bad cold.

[Herb]

You might wonder how an 81 year-old geezer wtih trifocals and beginning cataracts can shoot two or three holes touching so often at 50 yards (or even 100 yards).  The sights and target aiming bar really help.  My front sight is .106 thick steel (I made it) and covers 5.5" at 50 yards, the aiming bar (target) is 6.5".  Could be larger for me now, and more room between targets.  I sawed the rear sight out of 1" angle iron and drilled a .220 hole.  That sees 28" at 50 yards and worked fine but I wanted a smaller hole so tapped a wooden dowel in and drilled that to .103, a good size for these targets, but about .180 would be good for everything.  The big .220 hole would be fine for hunting.  I hold the top of the front sight half way up the hole.  The top 1/4 of the hole could be cut off and the sight works just as well.  A cleaning patch on the seating jag kept the bore clean for each powder, if I used it, though I sometimes cleaned the bore between powder changes.





For those with eyesight difficulties, this is a really good sight.  Doc White (GRRW) called it a closed buckhorn.  I have seen them on original rifles, which is where I got my idea.  It is not a peep sight and works just as well with the top 1/4 of the hole cut off.  Still hold the front sight half way up the hole (the widest diameter) to aim.  Hold up to the top of the (cut off) hole for a long range zero.

[Herb]

I shot Trenton's .45 Lancaster (or whatever I made) today to compare it to the GRRW Leman.  It has a 36" Green Mountain barrel and a Chambers Classic lock with a single trigger.  The muzzle is slightly coned.  This is the rifle Trenton wants in Hawaii, if he can get real black powder to use in it.  Pyrodex and Triple 7 will work flawlessly, but a booster and prime of real black powder is necessary.



Again, I used .440 Hornady balls and .015 OxYoke patches with wool Over Powder Wads for Pyrodex and Triple 7.  I started with 70 grains of Goex 3F but I think two patches blew.  Forgot my cleaning patches but wiped the bore after this group with a shooting patch.  Velocity was about 40 fps less than the Leman.  Target 2 was 70 grains of Goex 2F at 1736.  One patch may have blown.  Velocity the same as the Leman.  Did not wipe the bore.



Target 3 was the same 70 grain measure but Pyrodex P.  I filled the measure 1/8" from the top and topped it off with Goex 3F from a powder horn.  Poured that into the bore, which put the five grain black powder booster at the flash hole.  Forgot the OPW for the first shot, then used one for each shot from here on.  Primed the pan with about 3 grains of Goex 4F from a TOW flint priming flask.  Did not pick the vent the whole test.  No wiping or cleaning.  Velocity 1820 fps compared to 1965 in the Leman with identical components.  Don't know why the difference.  If weather holds, I'll shoot this test with the two rifles again.



Target 4 the same but Pyrodex RS.  A good load.  Velocity 18 fps faster than the Leman.



Target 5 was Triple 7 3F in a 50 grain Goex 2F measure filled 1/8" from the top then topped off with Goex 3F as a booster.  OPW.  1785 fps, same as 70 grains of Goex 3F.



Target 6 was ditto but 50 grains of Triple 7 2F at 1772 fps compared to 1757 for the Leman.  Compared to 70 grains of Goex 2F at 1737 fps.

Of 21 shots with Pyrodex and Triple 7, every ignition was normal.  Though this was to test velocity comparisons, Pyrodex RS grouped well in both rifles.






The rear sight was a buckhorn where I filled in the horns and filed a round groove.  The front sight is held halfway up the hole (widest diameter).  The hole could be bigger, but this is a good sight for poor eyesight (my eyesight is good so far).


The OxYoke lable and the JoAnn label for the thin linen.  (You can hold down Control and hit the + sign key to enlarge the photo). Not a good patch.  Could not find my thick JoAnn linen, but here is info on it.  Grey color, probably 44" wide.  You could buy a 2" strip to test it.  JoAnn always has coupon discounts so if you like it you can get it for perhaps half this $19.95 price.  Then the shrunken wool sweater cut with 5/8 gasket punch for Over Powder Wads.  Top measure is a 7mm Rem Mag fired case cut off at the shoulder, my 70 grain measure.  Bottom is a .308 fired case, holds 50 grains of Goex 2F and 3F.  With Pyrodex or Triple 7, fill it to the base of the neck and top it off with Goex 2F or 3F, about 5 grains, for the booster.  Not neccesary to use 4F.  It is easier to just fill it up and tap it to settle the powder to the base of the neck, then top it with black powder.
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A comparison of the rifles and powders.  Maybe more later if the weather holds.

[Carper]

Herb: Being from the hills of south West Virginia , I never really was interested in large bore half stocks. However, seeing all the time and effort ( science) you put into testing and attention to detail of construction my hat is off to you. I'll bet it is a very enjoyable afternoon just seeing what one of your rifles will really do. I would like to relate my experience of getting real blackpowder to an island.  For the last few years I have been the horse camp director for the Baptist Mission on Kodiak Island Alaska. While there, I would undertake to  get some of the local ranchers horses to the point that one could shoot from them. You cannot buy black powder on Kodiak Island or caps for that matter. I know lots of folks have ideas about getting around the law shipping such but I wanted to do it legally. It can be done, it is not cheap. One of my flintlock Southern rifles is hanging on the wall at the Mission right now with all the legal powder one would need for a long, long time. After lots of false starts and even having 500 .45 LC blanks returned from Anchorage, I found PowderInc.   Jerry knows his stuff.  He had it sent over on a ship.  A twentyfive lb case ended up costing me 525.00 but now it is there and it is legal. The same problem exists with shipping percussion caps.  So for me it was easier to send a flintlock ( which obviously uses the same main charge as a caplock) but did not have the additional worry and expense of getting caps on to Kodiak also. I hope relating my experience helps. I look forward to seeing additional posts concerning Hawkens, Lemans and such.  Keep up the good work.  Johnny Walker

[Herb]

Thank you, Johhny Walker!  That is really valuble information.  I have just been in contact with a shooter in Alaska re how black powder can be legally gotten there, even if at high cost, and I don't think he knows what you do.  If I figure that right, $525 divided by 25 pounds is only $21 per pound.  That is not expensive.  I am still working on this, but if it comes to it, I'll call Jerry at Powder, Inc.

[Herb]

I went to JoAnns today and discovered that the thick "Robe SS Linen" is really 55% linen and 45% rayon.  There was no tag on it, but I checked it at the JoAnn web site.  I did not recover my fired patches, but the rayon may have burned.  JoAnn does have a good linen.  It is "Sew Classics 100% linen" (sand color), item 01299189, 52" wide.  The number does not work in JoAnn's search box on their web site, plug in "Sew Classics 100% linen".    It is $16.99 per yard.  I tried to buy a 2" strip to test, but they gave it to me.  It mikes .012 on the micrometer ratchet but crushes to .007.  I will test it, but it will be a good linen.  I also found "Drill 40 unbleached, #00683532 (number does not work in their search box, but the name does).  $5.99 per yard.  I bought 1/4 yard to test,  it is .014 and .015 on the ratchet but crushes to .009 or .010.  This should be a good patch material.  They told me they could order whole bolts of material at discount, if I wanted that much.