Author Topic: Files  (Read 9865 times)

Offline Stophel

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Files
« on: December 24, 2014, 02:45:24 AM »
Hello all.  I've been out of the loop here for quite some time and gotten "behind" on stuff!  One of those things is files.  My good files are beginning to run out.  I had heard not too long ago that Nicholson was going to Mexico, but at the time I was too concerned with other things.   Well, let me tell you, just a few years ago, an $8 Nicholson American made file was a good quality long-lasting tool.  NOW, the "same" $8 Nicholson file made in Mexico is absolute garbage.  A wonderful cost cutting measure... for THEM, but definitely not for me.  I can't keep buying 50 cent files for the old 8 dollar price.  I literally have 30+ year old files that were my grandfather's that have been rode hard and put up wet and they STILL cut better than a new Mexican file. 

So... what are the quality alternatives?  I know I have bought and used very fine Swiss files and they're wonderful and all, and I don't mind paying $40 for a fine file... but I don't care to pay that much for a plain old mill bastard or three corner file (which I use a LOT).  Are there any decent non-bank-breaking ordinary files available?  I see that Brownell's has "Cooper Tools" mill files (I suspect made in China) for reasonable prices.  Anyone tried them or have other recommendations? 
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Offline WadePatton

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Re: Files
« Reply #1 on: December 24, 2014, 02:58:20 AM »
Some have recommended file refurbishing services, and I'm ready to try that myself.  I do have three or two dozen ready for refurb or conversion (to another tool).

I had to return a chainsaw file to the store just the other day.  Got one better, but still not as good as my worn files in the truck.  My new rule on those is to only buy a full box at a time-no banging around.  Or to test them before i leave, this was the first bad one ever.

Pferd makes a good file.

But yeah, Nicholson is junk these days.   :(

Anybody getting refurbs?

thanks
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Offline J Henry

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Re: Files
« Reply #2 on: December 24, 2014, 03:15:25 AM »
 Ok, it's the Boggs Tool and File Sharpening Co. www.boggstool.com or 1-800-547-5244. Bill Carter wrote the article on advise from Irv Tschanz. When this was printed (Fall 2013) it says he sent 70 old files and his total bill was $125, including shipping(use flat rate boxes). Looks like it's worth looking into!
 I stole this from the Hornersbench web site,,someone there had the same question !!!!
« Last Edit: December 24, 2014, 03:19:13 AM by J Henry »

Offline Dennis Glazener

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Re: Files
« Reply #3 on: December 24, 2014, 03:19:39 AM »
Chris,
Good to hear from you. On the subject of files, I purchased several Grobet knife files on ebay. I don't think I paid over $10-$12 each for them and they were brand new. I love them, as soon as I need to replace some of my other files I intend to buy Grobet replacements.
Dennis

Quote
So... what are the quality alternatives?  I know I have bought and used very fine Swiss files and they're wonderful and all, and I don't mind paying $40 for a fine file... but I don't care to pay that much for a plain old mill bastard or three corner file (which I use a LOT).  Are there any decent non-bank-breaking ordinary files available?  I see that Brownell's has "Cooper Tools" mill files (I suspect made in China) for reasonable prices.  Anyone tried them or have other recommendations? 
"I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend" - Thomas Jefferson

Offline PPatch

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Re: Files
« Reply #4 on: December 24, 2014, 03:44:43 AM »
You can't go wrong with these japanese files: http://www.leevalley.com/us/images/item/Woodworking/SandingShaping/62w3067s2.jpg

They cut fast and very smooth and it takes some doing to dull them. The "F" and "G" are my go-to files for medium removal work, the "F" is the first one to purchase to see if you like them. I have the "A" and "C" style for shaping around the lock and getting into smaller areas. The larger "H" size is for heavy work, but to tell the truth it isn't as effective as my #9 grain Auriou rasp which is shaped like the file "A" in this picture:
http://www.leevalley.com/us/images/item/Woodworking/SandingShaping/62w3067s2.jpg

Compared to the Brazilian made Nicholson file the Mexican ones are half better. Not saying a lot, I know.

dave
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Offline Mark Elliott

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Re: Files
« Reply #5 on: December 24, 2014, 07:23:18 AM »
They are very expensive,  but in my opinion, the very best files come from Grobet.   I have a couple sets(for ferrous and non-ferrous materials)  of Grobet Habilis files.  I consider them must haves.   

I go through lots of Nicholson 10" Flat Bastards.   I am now sending them to Boggs for resharpening.   Even the rejected files (meaning they won't attempt to sharpen them again) cut as good or better than new.   Some people even send them new files for sharpening.   It costs $2 to get a 10" flat bastard re-sharpened.   Boggs even gives you detailed instructions on their web site for how to package and ship your files most economically.   Once you have an account,  they bill you for the work. 



Offline Nordnecker

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Re: Files
« Reply #6 on: December 24, 2014, 04:32:03 PM »
This is a timely post. I just checked out Boggs' website a few days ago. It seems they also sell refurbished files. Most of my files came from yard sales, so I don't really know what they are. I have a lot of interesting shapes, cuts, and sizes. I'd love to have some of these back in good working condition. I keep file cards handy, and use 'em. But alot of my go-to files have gotten so pinned I can't clean 'em.
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Offline Jim Kibler

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Re: Files
« Reply #7 on: December 24, 2014, 06:24:39 PM »
As to the re-sharpened files, I've had a bunch done and they are good, but not perfect in my view.  The tooth isn't quite the same and they tend to chatter and pin a bit more in my opinion.  Even so, I'll probably have it done in the future.  This process is really nice for rasps.

Offline WadePatton

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Re: Files
« Reply #8 on: December 24, 2014, 06:29:12 PM »
As to the re-sharpened files, I've had a bunch done and they are good, but not perfect in my view.  The tooth isn't quite the same and they tend to chatter and pin a bit more in my opinion.  Even so, I'll probably have it done in the future.  This process is really nice for rasps.

This is the part of the conversation that we never quite got to in previous discussions.  The actual feedback of more than one file refurb service user. 

Love the feel of a sharp file on clean metal. 
Hold to the Wind

Offline Bob Roller

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Re: Files
« Reply #9 on: December 24, 2014, 06:45:48 PM »
As to the re-sharpened files, I've had a bunch done and they are good, but not perfect in my view.  The tooth isn't quite the same and they tend to chatter and pin a bit more in my opinion.  Even so, I'll probably have it done in the future.  This process is really nice for rasps.

This is the part of the conversation that we never quite got to in previous discussions.  The actual feedback of more than one file refurb service user. 

Love the feel of a sharp file on clean metal. 

I have yet to try the Boggs services but still have some NOS American files and others that I have had
for 50 years that still are good.I have a nice assortment of needle files and miniatures from Germany,Switzerland and England that I use.These old American names "made in Mexico"are a hoax
and should be rejected on the spot.I bought some 10"mill files from Harbor Freight this past Summer and they seem to be doing OK.Made in China no doubt like everything else they sell.
Curtailing my shop work as I am doing will probably stop me from having any files resharpened.If I don't
use them,they won't wear out.

Bob Roller

Offline Curt Larsen

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Re: Files
« Reply #10 on: December 24, 2014, 07:12:13 PM »
This is a good thread.  I'm glad I have saved all of my dad's old files.  I haven't yet figured out what to do with the Mexican Nicholson's that I have used.  They don't seem to last too long.  I was interested in Dennis' comments on Grobet files.  Are those marked Grobet USA any good or just doo doo?  How do we compare them with Swiss made ones?

Offline Stophel

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Re: Files
« Reply #11 on: December 24, 2014, 11:32:53 PM »
Thanks guys.  I'm gonna give some of these suggestions a shot.

If I had taken better care of my files (I am ROUGH on tools... and everything else), I'm sure many of them would still be good.  Like I said, some of my grandfather's files that have had 10 or 20 more years of rough handling than mine have still are better than the lousy new ones.  But, they're gettin' where not only can you feel that they are dull, you can see it too.  The edges are getting blunted over.  I'll gather them up and send them off to see if anything can be done to resharpen them.  If not, they're knife material.   :D

I don't use many "specialty" files.  I use a couple of nice fine cut Swiss files that are good for making smooth surfaces.  Otherwise, I'm pretty happy with ordinary ones.  Mill bastard files, three corner files, half round double cut coarse files, and chainsaw files (I managed to think ahead pretty good a few years ago, and bought quite a few nice old Oregon chain saw files and a few large Nicholson rough cut flat files, but I rarely use those).  The cheap Chinese needle files see plenty of use in my shop.  Some of them are not great, crooked, lopsided, etc, but they usually cut ok, and well enough for what I need them for, normally.  Which reminds me, I need to get some new good Swiss needle files....

One thing I have used, and I've probably lost and broken all that I have now, is a point file (you know, distributor points).  Thin, cut like crazy, and really good if you grind them narrower or grind the teeth off one side for doing things like slotting barrel tenons.  I doubt I could find such a thing anymore...
When a reenactor says "They didn't write everything down"   what that really means is: "I'm too lazy to look for documentation."

kaintuck

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Re: Files
« Reply #12 on: December 25, 2014, 12:05:01 AM »
boogs tool sharpening is THE place....I hve sent pounds of files to them, and they are family owned and operated....so they care about qaulity service!
nice folks, #1 work!

keep your files in wrappers, so they don't bang into each other.....keep 2 sets...one for metal, one for wood........ ;D

and yes....super files cost super amounts......but you only need 1-2 of each, and they just may last a lifetime.......

marc n tomtom

Offline PPatch

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Re: Files
« Reply #13 on: December 25, 2014, 01:02:04 AM »
 "...is a point file (you know, distributor points)."

I bought one at an auto parts store a few months back, then I found one in Dad's old tool box. The new bought one isn't worth a flip, the old one is still just the thing after many many years of use.

dp
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Offline David R. Pennington

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Re: Files
« Reply #14 on: December 25, 2014, 04:31:15 PM »
I am always on the lookout at the flea markets and etc.,. for good files. I have found on occasions even new old stock Nicholson Black Diamonds. I buy good used ones when I find them too. I found a box recently of new old stock in original box, six inch Black Diamond fine cut files for around a buck a piece. I have one that is a half round marked xxx fine. It doesn't even look like it has teeth but it will bring an almost polished finish. Some one gave me recently a bunch of "plasti'cut" files from a cabinet shop they were discarding. They weren't worn out, simply clogged. I cleaned them and they are good for roughing in brass. Almost all the new ones I have bought are a disappointment.
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Re: Files
« Reply #15 on: December 25, 2014, 06:51:05 PM »
I send files to Boggs too and am very happy with their service and their prices.  But I want to mention that they also sharpen mill end bits, reamers and etc.  I recently sent them a left hand tapered reamer to sharpen (imagine that..) and it came back better than new.

I have quite a collection of American made files and mill bits and Boggs keeps them all working for me.   

Offline JCKelly

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Re: Files
« Reply #16 on: December 27, 2014, 02:37:49 AM »
Nicholson Black Diamond files are higher carbon steel than used since about 1980. Used to be from 10120 to 10140 steel (1.2 to 1.4% carbon), the higher carbon used for smaller files.
The ultra high carbon of those older files makes the steel capable of taking and holding a razor edge.

Then about 1980 or so the former Republic Steel in Cleveland, Ohio stopped making this very high carbon steel. Nicholson then started using the somewhat lower carbon steel 1095 (0.90 to 1.03% carbon.

In all cases Nicholson coated their freshly-cut files with "cyanide loaf", before hardening them in lead baths. This stuff prevented any loss of carbon from the very fine tooth edges while the metal was heated about 1440F for quenching in salt water, maybe 10% table salt in water.

Then Our Gov't got into the act to Help & Protect Us All and prohibited cyanide loaf. Same reason you can no longer find Kasenit. Cyanide Loaf was a mix of potassium ferrocyanide, K4Fe(CN)6, with flour and bone black, all are boiled together in salt water. If you make it yourself it is important to use the ferrocyanide, that letter "o" is important that it be not so very poisonous.

Of course if you get the grocery store brand of table salt, even sea salt, you will find the ingredients contain a bit of potassium ferrocyanide, K4Fe(CN)6, to prevent clogging.
Gov't says you can't heat treat with the stuff but you can sprinkle it on your dinner.

I learnt this all a few decades ago when I used to call on Nicholson, first in Philadelphia, then Cullman, Alabama. My employer sold the metal used in their lead pots (yeah, they also had to change from lead to bismuth). I was the metallurgist, hence technical service, for Rolled Alloys.

Wrote this up for Muzzle Blasts a decade or so ago, under the title Old Files and New Knives. Can send a pdf of the last revision to whoever asks.
 
One limit to the effects of metallurgy here is how well the file is cut. I've not a clue to what the Mexicans use to make their files. But I did get a good side-by-side look at a Mexican and an American "Nicholson" file a few years ago at Woodcraft Supply. It was clear that the USA file had been cut differently. I shelled out another Andrew Jackson or so & got the American file.

Now for My Ignorance, please help - what does "pin" or "pinning" mean, with respect to files?

Offline Pete G.

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Re: Files
« Reply #17 on: December 27, 2014, 08:40:43 PM »
From Wiki

Pinning refers to the clogging of the file teeth with pins, which are material shavings. These pins cause the file to lose its cutting ability and can scratch the workpiece. A file card, which is a brush with metal bristles, is used to clean the file. (The name, "card", is the same as used for the "raising cards" (spiked brushes) used in woolmaking.) Chalk can help prevent pinning.

Offline WadePatton

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Re: Files
« Reply #18 on: December 27, 2014, 10:30:49 PM »
Yeah, i hadn't heard the term "pinning" myself.

And every time i've tried chalking my file, it makes matters worse.  It certainly doesn't help.  Anyone who has stood behind a file any length of time knows how they can "load up" and scratch a piece of work. 

I've always been keen on file work.  very tactile.
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Offline Bob Roller

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Re: Files
« Reply #19 on: December 28, 2014, 01:35:41 AM »
Yeah, i hadn't heard the term "pinning" myself.

And every time i've tried chalking my file, it makes matters worse.  It certainly doesn't help.  Anyone who has stood behind a file any length of time knows how they can "load up" and scratch a piece of work. 

I've always been keen on file work.  very tactile.

I frequently put a few drops of tapping fluid on the file or on
the work.This works well for the inner surface of a lock plate.

Bob Roller

Offline PPatch

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Re: Files
« Reply #20 on: December 28, 2014, 02:08:45 AM »
Yeah, i hadn't heard the term "pinning" myself.

And every time i've tried chalking my file, it makes matters worse.  It certainly doesn't help.  Anyone who has stood behind a file any length of time knows how they can "load up" and scratch a piece of work. 

I've always been keen on file work.  very tactile.

To me working in the southland chalk seems to just collect moisture out of the air, gets that rust started quite well, down deep where it counts. I used it for a while then gave up on it. I now spray my files with WD-40. The files cut just fine with it on there and it creates a barrier against the humidity.

dave
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Offline BOB HILL

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Re: Files
« Reply #21 on: December 28, 2014, 02:42:01 AM »
Found the same thing with the moisture in the s.c. lowcoutry. If using the chalk,try to brush the file out with your file card when finished.              Bob
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