Author Topic: CRUDE gun finish  (Read 23813 times)

leviathan

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CRUDE gun finish
« on: December 26, 2014, 03:06:47 AM »
        The gun I am building now is one that would have been made by a backwoods blacksmith or farmer. It will be very crudely crafted since not being made by a professional gunmaker. What would have been a crude type of finish (oil, just stain etc. or left natural) he may have used on the stock with his inexperience of making guns?. Remember, the stock itself will be primitive with carving and file marks left on stock because of a poor talent in carving. ???
         Also, the same goes for metal finish-left in the white or what do you suggest. ???
           Merry Christmas to you all and thanks for all the advice you have given me this year!! Remember-Jesus is the Reason for the Season! ;D ;D ;D

Online rich pierce

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Re: CRUDE gun finish
« Reply #1 on: December 26, 2014, 03:46:02 AM »
The concept of a farmer of blacksmith stocking a rifle is a romantic notion, but it's mostly woodworking, so it seems more likely to me that a person with adequate woodworking tools stocking a rifle is more realistic.  It really cannot be done with a pocketknife.  Maybe a cooper, a carriage maker, a cabinetmaker or a carpenter would take on such a job for himself in a down season.  Such men would know of stains and finishes.  

Just so we are speaking the same language I will share my understanding of common gun building terms.  (For me) "Carving" usually refers to decorative incised or relief designs on a rifle.  "Inletting" is a term commonly used to refer to fitting the metal parts to the gun and "shaping" is sculpting the exterior form of the stock.  "Finishing" can refer to final surface prep as well as the application of stains and varnishes to the wood, and final surface prep and coloring of metal surfaces.

Rather than settling for a crude build, unless the concept has special appeal, you could invest in classes and practice work. For example: Inlet a lock into a piece of firewood.  Do it again until it is acceptable.  Build the whole rifle using a plain piece of wood  following a good book and all available advice and counsel during the build, then burn the stock and re-stock it with a nice piece if wood. These are the sorts of practices an aspiring musician or other artist would expect to do.  At the end of the second stocking of the parts you should have both a decent rifle and real skills.  Going in with the idea that the finished product will be crude won't stretch you much or help you aspire to high skill development.

There are existing orginal longrifles that were obviously hastily built, but by skilled hands.  These usually have left some scraper marks, some file marks on the furniture, but have been stained and varnished, etc.
« Last Edit: December 26, 2014, 03:51:14 AM by rich pierce »
Andover, Vermont

Offline Gaeckle

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Re: CRUDE gun finish
« Reply #2 on: December 26, 2014, 04:25:26 AM »
You're confusing the term crude with utilitarian....take a look at the Antique section and another fellow posted about a rifle made in Ohio by a man named Dancer.....there is a link to photos. Even in making something plain and utilitarian there is the need to be disciplined in layout, construction, execution and finish.

leviathan

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Re: CRUDE gun finish
« Reply #3 on: December 26, 2014, 04:27:36 AM »
On the frontier one had to be self-sufficient (jack of all trades to get by) and this is the type of person I am referring to. An individual not practiced in gunmaking. Carving the stock with a plain old pocket knife was done as I have seen old  ;)pics of mountain men doing this.  I do not believe the common man of the day would be seen carrying a very ornate weapon although many were available. I am sure the average Joe would be more concerned with service than beauty and could not afford the beauty of ornate rifle, I think the plain unadorned gun more common than the ornate.. thank you for help anyway!!

Online rich pierce

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Re: CRUDE gun finish
« Reply #4 on: December 26, 2014, 04:53:44 AM »
Good luck with your build. I can't recommend any of the builders who are most helpful here for help with a crude build.  They just don't do crude well.   ???
Andover, Vermont

Online Long Ears

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Re: CRUDE gun finish
« Reply #5 on: December 26, 2014, 05:05:59 AM »
Yea, wrong place for crude building advice. I also don't think any "Jack of all trades" would build a crude gun. They work with their hands everyday so they are way beyond crude. Also how did they ever build a barrel or lock without the tools of the trade? Build what the gunmakers built after a 10 year apprenticeship. JMHO.

leviathan

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Re: CRUDE gun finish
« Reply #6 on: December 26, 2014, 05:24:46 AM »
   I think you misunderstand. When I say crude, I mean not the same fit and finish seen on professionally made guns. Again, by the way, I have seen pics of very crudely made antique firearms (downright ugly shaped stocks but serviceable nonetheless). Being a Jack of all trades does not mean you will be making a gun everyday. Just some knowledge of wood carving and basic mechanics of a longrifle. As far as the lock, maybe one recycled or one bought at the local hardware store. Same goes for the barrel. I didn't live 200 years ago so I really do not know how every single gun was made or how. I am just trying to build one similar to one that may have been built by individuals posted earlier.
   Yet to get advice about stock and metal finish. Can someone please ,instead of taking me to task about the word crude, give me some idea of what type of finish someone would put on a stock who is not a professional gunmaker? Thank you again for those willing to help. I really appreciate it!

Online rich pierce

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Re: CRUDE gun finish
« Reply #7 on: December 26, 2014, 05:47:35 AM »
Common workmen as I said above would knows how to use stains and varnishes just as you or I do today. I have seen a buck and ball Lehigh smoothbore with a reddish milk paint finish but it is not certain to me that this was the original finish on the gun. Could have been.
« Last Edit: December 26, 2014, 05:48:59 AM by rich pierce »
Andover, Vermont

Offline PPatch

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Re: CRUDE gun finish
« Reply #8 on: December 26, 2014, 06:00:15 AM »
So this pioneer/mountain man is perhaps "restocking" a gun then. Maybe the stock on his Ol' Betsy got busted beyond repair when he slammed that Grizzly over the noggin. So he is utilizing Ol' Betsy's furniture, naturally h'it was a Plains or Hawken style gun, right?. He brainstorms a bit over a pipe of ta'backer and decides he can whittle out a stock with his skinning knife. Of course, being resourceful and thinking ahead, he has some aged hardwood he has already tomahawked into a stock blank out of a log he cut several years ago and has aged to perfection. All good. He has zero woodworking experience but by gar he's seen it done by them thar mountain men back east.

He goes to cut'n and whittling like a man determined, he NEEDs this tool, his new Betsy! He works that skinning knife expertly with deliberation. Its looking pretty good to his eye, he even figured out he could use the edge of the blade to scrape the stock smooth. But who has time for that... Inletting the barrel was just a matter of tomahawking and using the skinner to slice and smooth out the inlet.

He then came to the lock inlet, but he managed, crude, sure. Who needs drills when you are an expert whittler? Trigger plate and innards, done. Drill for screws, lock screws and trigger plate, tang screw and butt plate... well... ???

Ramrod hole.... hummm... ramrod hole... ramrod HOLE! Ah fiddlesticks.

Crude sounds about right and yeah, I was being a smartass. How about rethinking who this mountain man was, his skill level and tool access? Anyone here will be happy to advise you on gun building methods. Intentional crudeness is a thing, but not that crude. Many a rifle or gun was made by backwoodsmen, but they didn't make Zip Guns and most had some fair if not accomplished woodworking skills. Some sort of iron or tobacco stain then varnish was probably their go-to finishing method. The wood smoothed by scraping.

dp

« Last Edit: December 26, 2014, 06:02:48 AM by PPatch »
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Offline little joe

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Re: CRUDE gun finish
« Reply #9 on: December 26, 2014, 06:21:57 AM »
I have a half stock Indiana-Ohio small bore that the stock I believe was a restock. I do not think the stocker had any tools beyond a pocket knife and a chisel, probably made in a smokehouse using poplar as a gunstock wood

Offline alex e.

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Re: CRUDE gun finish
« Reply #10 on: December 26, 2014, 06:28:21 AM »
Is there actual historical documentation for this build? Or is this just a fantasy/wishful thinking idea? Any original sources or quotes concerning this topic? Sorry, that's the history geek side of me. I ask myself that when I start a project,before I make a purchase for any of my living history or reenactment things. It saves one a lot of grief and money. Where? When? And who? Also enter the equation. The word ''research'' eludes many.
   Most on this forum can cobble a ''crude'' gun. But most ,myself included,seek to raise the bar for themselves and learn how to better their skills.
As to a 'crude finish'. Most anything could be slathered on a hunk of wood. Most would not likely be a lasting,durable finish.
Its your project, enjoy!
Uva uvam videndo varia fit

Offline FALout

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Re: CRUDE gun finish
« Reply #11 on: December 26, 2014, 06:32:08 AM »
Would someone back then doing a likely restock as suggested (since it's doubtful they would be able to purchase the parts to build from the ground up) even bother with a finish?  Maybe smear some grease on it and call it quits.

I guess the question is will this be for re-enacting?  If not why build it?  It's one thing to build a rifle with some patina, but another to "cobble" one together.
« Last Edit: December 26, 2014, 07:02:31 AM by FALout »
Bob

Offline sqrldog

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Re: CRUDE gun finish
« Reply #12 on: December 26, 2014, 06:46:37 AM »
Check Guns and Gunmaking Tools of Southern Appalachia  by John Rice Erwin. Couple of rifles in the front of the book may give you some ideas. I really don't see taking $500.00 worth of parts and making a$100.00 rifle but to each his own. I leave each artist to do his/her own thing. Good luck with you project. Tim.   
By the way the cover picture shows Ed Sherwood working on a walnut gunstock with a pocket knife.

leviathan

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Re: CRUDE gun finish
« Reply #13 on: December 26, 2014, 07:03:46 AM »
Squrl Dog and FALout thank you so much for your valuable advice and willingness to help!! ;)  Squrl, I had forgot about Irwins book, thanks for reminding me. ;D Thank you for sharing with me  your intelligence about History through information unlike someone else on this thread showing their vast knowledge through the language they us.
    Bye the way, I never have been interested in ornate or highly carved rifles just the plain. As long as that is where I have "raised my bar" (as others has stated)and I am happy whats the problem? No need for chastisement from others  for not wanting to go higher when I am happy where I am with my style of gun.
      I have Irwins book and you are right--it does have a gent carving a stock with a pocket knife. Wonders of wonders. There is also a pic of what Irwin calls a crudely made rifle on page 12 of the book and I quote "One of the most CRUDELY made rifles I have seen, the weapon in the bottom photograph, could  nevertheless be quite accurate." . As you can tell by the pic. it was not made by a professional. ;D





 
« Last Edit: December 26, 2014, 05:22:24 PM by leviathan »

Offline KentSmith

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Re: CRUDE gun finish
« Reply #14 on: December 26, 2014, 08:08:54 AM »


This is just conjecture, please no questions about sources because I don't have any and I don't care, you're asking for speculation here.  Since we do have resins available or decent finishes and stains the question is what would the common man have done  for a gun to be "good enough" if he did not have Lowe's or TOTW or other sources available to acquire them and limited resources to obtain what he needed.  I'd use a good linseed oil and live with the goo when it is wet or humid.  Skip the stain why would you need it?

Offline WadePatton

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Re: CRUDE gun finish
« Reply #15 on: December 26, 2014, 08:56:42 AM »
Well i'm interested in what you wind up doing. 

Maybe you find some photos of something (anything) "very crudely crafted" to let us understand more precisely how crude you have in mind.

.020" inches can be a mile to a machinist.  Whereas 20,000 light years wouldn't even get you from here to the center of our own Milky Way.  Relativity eh?
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Offline blienemann

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Re: CRUDE gun finish
« Reply #16 on: December 26, 2014, 10:08:28 AM »
Leviathan, I've seen these on "crude work" and on arms with good architecture.

1) no finish - Dixon's had a fine old Bucks looking rifle never stained or finished - lock, stock, barrel, trigger and guard and one or two pipes, wood shaped with coarse rasp.  Converted to cap and continued use, after 200 years was a weathered gray like barn wood.  I built a copy, painted linseed oil on butt and down ramrod hole, still in white after 20 years, dirt and fouling make the curl show up real nice.  Draw filed barrel has taken on a nice mottled brown.

2) no finish, burnish with something smooth and hard - furniture still finished that way, shows curl.

3) Herschel smeared axle grease under some mounts to resist damp - could try all over, messy.

4) anything used for harness / tack, leather conditioner from the old days - if it smells good, critters might eat your stock.  Or mix in beeswax.

5) any paint or varnish that would have been used around the farm or in town.  Many old NW guns and plains rifles have a varnish painted on with a brush, right over all the mounts, helps seal.

6) linseed oil or similar, then play heat over it until it smokes, shows off curl and decent finish.

7) play heat over stock without oil, also colors and hardens, like hardening arrow tips.

8) wax or paraffin probably better than anything else at resisting water, melt paraffin like Wallace and apply warm and rub in.  Or shoe wax or other, warm or cold, with or without color.

9) slop linseed oil on wet, let soak in for few days, then wipe off hard with burlap, polish for few days.

10) if blacksmith in south, Wallace and others talk about "black rifles", oil burned onto wood and metal.  Ask our southern gentlemen again.

11) experiment, or ask Mad Monk.  If email me offline, could send couple pics.

 


Offline FALout

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Re: CRUDE gun finish
« Reply #17 on: December 26, 2014, 03:37:55 PM »
Sorry if I offended you with my post, just trying to understand what you want, that's why I had question marks.
Bob

leviathan

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Re: CRUDE gun finish
« Reply #18 on: December 26, 2014, 05:09:11 PM »
FALout- no offense taken at all. I appreciate your help tremendously!!! I was referring in my post to another on our Forum and language used in responding. Thanks to people like you  and others on this forum I have learned much more about our History!! Again, no offense but a hardy thank you

Offline Mike Brooks

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Re: CRUDE gun finish
« Reply #19 on: December 26, 2014, 06:22:36 PM »
Interesting concept. You first must decide what your unskilled man has for tools. Pocket knife? Hatchet? Hoof scraper? If that's what he has you should only use those tools to build the gun. I can't imagine how you would inlet a lock with those tools.....I'd use paint or nothing ...maybe wax for a finish.
 How is our hardy frontiersman going to drill his ram rod hole? How is he going to keep his lock against the barrel if he has no access to a drill to drill a hole for a lock bolt? How will he drill his pin holes to hold the stock to the barrel? Maybe this should be wired together? Or, maybe he has brought a handfull of the right sized drills and a hand drill with him just by chance?  Hopefully he has a tap of the appropriate size to instal a percussion drum, if flint lets hope he has those drills so he can drill his touch hole. Is his barrel already breeched? if not we're back to those nasty old taps again, does he just by chance have the right size? what about hammering out a breech plug? Now we're going to need a die to thread the plug!
 Luckily, he won't need a buttplate, and you really don't need a trigger guard.
 Should lay your stocking hatchet down  when you can rest your cheek against the stock and see down the barrel? If so then you should probably leave the gun real chubby with hatchet marks and split outs all over it. If you are going to do this you should only use the same collection of tools that your hardly frontiersman had.
 Endless possibilities all of which seem either impractical or unrealistic to me.
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Offline bob in the woods

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Re: CRUDE gun finish
« Reply #20 on: December 26, 2014, 07:00:54 PM »
I thought that the quick and easy finish of the day was an oil varnish ?   That's what I would use.
You can build a basic gun without the " crude" i.e. good shape, with a scraped finish.  In other words; crude doesn't have to = $#@*/ugly

Offline Pete G.

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Re: CRUDE gun finish
« Reply #21 on: December 26, 2014, 07:18:39 PM »
Take a look at rifle #136 in "Rifles of Colonial America".

leviathan

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Bob In The Woods
« Reply #22 on: December 26, 2014, 07:32:22 PM »
  Thank you so much for hitting the nail on the head Bob in the Woods!!!! ;) Crude does not have to be ugly!! That is what I am exactly after. Primitive in architecture and but still not having fit and finish of the work of a professional gunmaker. I think many of the old muzzleloaders were had a rougher final finish that many of todays high glossy finishes left on longrifles.
    Also, Mr. Brooks, (by the way, I am a true admirer of your craftsmanship) ;D don't forget the backwoodsman had to be self-sufficent to the point of having to make his own tools sometimes. Hacker Martin made many of his own tools to craft guns. These hardy people made do with what they had if not they made it. I am a firm believer in necessity is the mother of invention.
   By the way,I really am impressed by the way you antique and distress you stocks Mr Brooks. :-X

Offline bgf

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Re: CRUDE gun finish
« Reply #23 on: December 26, 2014, 11:41:09 PM »
Take a look at rifle #136 in "Rifles of Colonial America".

That's what I was thinking too.

Offline blienemann

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Re: CRUDE gun finish
« Reply #24 on: December 27, 2014, 12:02:21 AM »
To my eye and as George stated, the profile and shaping of this rifle #136 matches professional work, with nice lock panels, flats from there to tang and trigger plate, nice comb, etc.  The pull is a bit short and cheekpiece to rear of usual location.  This rifle might have gone out the door in the white, like that from Dixon's.  Someone back home might have added a buttplate - shortening the pull slightly, and added other mounts and decoration.  Speculation for sure.  Bob