tearing patches

[hortonstn]

have a friend shooting a heavy bench rifle, shot great then all of a sudden it started tearing  Teflon patches every thing is the same so what do you think happened??
paul

[Dave R]

Was the muzzle accidentally nicked causing it to tear when starting or shooting the ball? Sometimes this can be found by running a cotton swab around the muzzle crown and down the barrel, If nicked it can pull a minute amount of cotton off the swab.

[Natureboy]

  It's probably a good idea, when shooting from the bench, to use a ramrod guide so you don't wear the muzzle end or cause scratches which might tear the patch on the way down.

[smylee grouch]

A heavey bench gun would probably have a false muzzle to protect that straight crown but a close look at the crown might show something damaged.

[mbush50]

You should look at the short starter. If the short starter is too large for the ball and Teflon it will tear it at the muzzle. Been there done that.

Michael

[Greyfeather]

Did this start with a new batch of patching?

[hortonstn]

Same ticking , no false muzzle

[smylee grouch]

I think mbush has a good point, if the diameter of the short starter is a little too big it can strech and or tear the patch when you seat the ball into the bore before you cut the patch. 

[Kermit]

Got a photo of the starter and maybe the muzzle? I'm not picturing...

[dagner]

 if you angle your short starter you can cut the patch loading. another way is tight patch and ball /hitting it with hammer  or hiiting proper combo to hard drive ball threw or splitting  patch.  last a rotten or weak weave  spots  in the patching./  I have had and saw  all the above happen over the years.

[hammer]

Teflon?  No lube?   Hot barrel, hard fouling?
Could be tearing on the way down.
If barrel not wiped between shots might try that first.

[LH]

I've seen several new GM barrels do this.  Start out shooting like a house afire and after a couple of hundred shots, go to blowing patches.  The only cure I ever came up with was lapping.  Robert Watts (well known gun builder) told me it was a function of button rifling which burnished the bore leaving a microscopic layer of "glaze" for lack of a better description,  that would start flaking off after shooting for awhile.  Robert advised me to stay away from button rifled barrels,  but the one I have is superbly accurate after I lapped it. 

[Daryl]

I've never hear of a high quality muzzleloading buttoned barrels.  I was not aware that GM ever ran a button down one of their cut rifled barrels to iron the lands, like some makers today do.

The only button rifled ML barrels I've heard of were those 48" twist barrels mounted on cheap productions rifles back in the 70's and 80's. The reason was that in the time it took to properly cut rifle a barrel they could button several - or more, maybe a dozen?

I agree with Robert - stay way from button rifled muzzleloading barrels - but - the most accurate modern bench rest barrels today, are button rifled. It is just not possible to make a deep groove buttoned barrel.

[little joe]

Load it without powder and then blow it out with a CO2 discharger and possibly this will help you determine when the cutting is occruing.

[Dphariss]

have a friend shooting a heavy bench rifle, shot great then all of a sudden it started tearing  Teflon patches every thing is the same so what do you think happened??
paul

If they are striped ticking the cloth may be weak. Try tearing a few down the stripe.
Most ticking from Joanne's etc is foreign made and its complete garbage..

Dan

[Dphariss]

I've seen several new GM barrels do this.  Start out shooting like a house afire and after a couple of hundred shots, go to blowing patches.  The only cure I ever came up with was lapping.  Robert Watts (well known gun builder) told me it was a function of button rifling which burnished the bore leaving a microscopic layer of "glaze" for lack of a better description,  that would start flaking off after shooting for awhile.  Robert advised me to stay away from button rifled barrels,  but the one I have is superbly accurate after I lapped it. 

I have never heard of GM doing this and can't imagine why they would. I could give several reasons why its a major mistake. The only "barrel" maker I know of doing this is one of the dedicated ML barrel makers and i never could figure out why.  If the button were very tight at all it will but a burred edge on the lands unless it was profiled to fit the grooves as well. Its also a wonderful way to add internal stresses to a pieces of steel. BTW buttoning will not remove reamer marks completely or "glaze" a barrel nor will the non-existent "glaze" flake off. I have only seen this with a barrel made of cheap cold rolled steel.  The lands started to "fall away" from the rest of the barrel in places.

Dan

[Standing Bear]

I agree w/ Dan, doubtful anything changed with the barrel.  The short starter could be an issue but I would look at the patching again.  Could be a weak spot in the material.  I'm thinking the outfit that applied the Teflon washed the base material first (that is what we do) and maybe the detergent was strong in a spot.  Also someone mentioned imported fabric and if that is the case with the material the Teflon was applied to who knows what would cause weakness.

"The first step in scientific problem solving is to accurately define the problem."

TC

[stuart cee dub]

I had this same problem recently .There was a tear on the patch probably occurring while seating the ball ,occurring about one out of three patches as fired .No burn through marks.
Part of the problem was the blue ticking material. The thickness was about right but the tightness of the weave left something to be desired.(what Dan said ).My canvas patches which work great in 45 cal were shredding as well around the edges .I think 40's must run hot and fast.
 
I did three things one or all of which seemed to help .

1) I found a really tight natural colored cotton duck cloth about .014 (compressed) thick on the sale pile at  Joann's fabrics. Sadly there was but maybe a half yard on remnant sale pile with no product code.
2) Before seating the ball on the patch I preform a little pocket with my pinkie finger so the is room in the seat ,then place the ball in the formed pocket .My theory is that it is no longer being stretched to the breaking point during ball seating operations .
3) I use a thinner short starter.

A ragged hole at 25 yds off the bench was the result last Saturday whereas before I would get two groups both good but a couple of inches apart.So there is some light here and a direction to persue.
 

[StevenV]

I realize this thread is a little old, but raining all day and had time to do some more reading. This patch tearing thing has happened to me this past hunting season. Gun is 50cal. G.Mt. thousands of shots thru the barrel shoots extremely well. Load in the summer is .500 ball with .019 to .020 teflon coated pillow ticking, 85grs. 2F Swiss point of aim at 100yds. This past flintlock season here in Pa. was very cold not just below freezing last week of season we had below zero. I believe the the issue is loading and shooting in extreme cold does not take the same size ball as when you are shooting the rest of the year (warmer). Need to drop to a smaller ball .498 or .495 when extremely cold, patches won't tear. The patch thing with the edges burning(fraying) , seat ball a little deeper in the barrel before cutting patch, takes care of edges shredding, had this issue with my .40cal. I made a short starter that seats ball a little deeper and even though edges fraying don't fray enough to get to ball. Luckily for us the tearing of patches wasn't enough to alter shots at deer this past flintlock season. We still got lucky enough to harvest a nice buck and two doe with flintlocks. Two sons shot and got buck (50cal.) daughter got doe (54cal.) and I got doe (50cal.).  Patch #1 and #3 (left to right) 50 cal. same gun with .500 ball patch #2 different gun 50 cal. , .495 ball  and #4 54 cal. .530 ball. For the range with just load and shoot. When hunting ,Teflon patching is dipped in Bear fat rendered twice. Patches from the range during spring, summer and fall look like patch #4 all the time with .500 ball.    Steve 

[Daryl]

The cuts are from the lands  perhaps the patch material is weakened - or the crown needs some work.
I do not understand what the weather has to do with it, except that in cold (freezing) weather, you need a lube that remains soft, so the patch is soft, not stiff.
Land cuts are what I am seeing.
I shoot the same concoctions of ball and patch ALL year long - very a tear or burn- I also use thicker patches, except for when shooting oversized balls in my .40 - then I use a .019" pocket drill patch. If using bored sized balls, I use either a 10 ounce denim or the remaining piece of .0235" railroad mattress ticking that I have - no tears, no cuts, just accurate shooting.

[WadePatton]

Looks like a thumb-job is in order. 

[mark esterly]

could a harder lead alloy be another possibility?

[Daryl]

could a harder lead alloy be another possibility?

Definitely. Since I only use dead soft lead for my small bores, I never consider that aspect, however, even in my .69 using .682" WW balls, there is no cutting- anywhere with the heavy patch.  The material is stressed more on the lands, but that is it.  The .675" hard balls are much easier to load, though, again, no cutting by the lands, however, if the lands were sharper, they'd have torn.