Author Topic: An interesting knife  (Read 16015 times)

Offline Dennis Glazener

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An interesting knife
« on: December 29, 2014, 05:20:40 PM »
This knife is owned by a collector friend of mine, it came from the Wise County VA area. Wise County VA is in the southern end of the Valley of VA. Most notably it is clearly stamped HB (HUDSON BAY).. He understand there was access to the HB products through the Mississippi in the late 1700s, and George Rogers Clarks campaign over to Vincennes  is only one example.. He saw my ALR Forum posting of 1/18/ 2014 on Rifleman's Knives and thought we might want to give this knife a shot?

Dennis



















« Last Edit: May 13, 2020, 07:12:26 PM by rich pierce »
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Offline Majorjoel

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Re: An interesting knife
« Reply #1 on: December 29, 2014, 09:32:28 PM »
Very cool old knife Dennis! The crown on that antler handle looks like it might crumble away with the slightest breeze. I have always appreciated old period knives but am very much a novice at best. Kind of like powder horns, if they are unmarked they could be 250 years old or made by "those guys" three months ago.  Has your friend researched the Hudson Bay mark to find any similar type of knives from them?   Thank you for showing it.........Joel
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Offline Ky-Flinter

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Re: An interesting knife
« Reply #2 on: December 30, 2014, 12:06:38 AM »
......The crown on that antler handle looks like it might crumble away with the slightest breeze......

It's probably as hard as the rest of the antler.  It's from a naturally shed antler.

-Ron
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Offline Shreckmeister

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Re: An interesting knife
« Reply #3 on: December 30, 2014, 03:07:43 AM »
That's a great knife.  Here's my favorite.  So sharp you can shave with it.
I've seen so many HB cartouches I don't know what to think about them.  Who knows how many stamps the company had made over the years.  Somebody should publish a study on them.

« Last Edit: December 30, 2014, 03:11:14 AM by Shreckmeister »
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Offline LRB

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Re: An interesting knife
« Reply #4 on: December 30, 2014, 04:14:50 PM »
 Dennis, Just my opinions and rambling with little to back it up. Just going by the photos. The blade looks like a salvaged Spanish belduque, with some filing done on it to maybe clean it up some. The brass guard and cross pin are a little out of place for 18th c. The brass would be rare, but possible. I would be very suspicious of it's origins, although I see no one thing that would indict it as fake. Just a feeling. One other thing about it that I find bothersome, is that it perfectly fits the romantic notion of a large riflemans knife. A little too perfect.

Offline Frank Barker

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Re: An interesting knife
« Reply #5 on: December 31, 2014, 01:07:40 AM »
My exact thoughts Wick.    :-\   

Regards   Frank

Offline Luke MacGillie

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Re: An interesting knife
« Reply #6 on: December 31, 2014, 01:24:43 AM »
Me 3 on doubting its an original.

There is a huge amount of misunderstanding about Hudson Bay Markings. 

Offline JTR

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Re: An interesting knife
« Reply #7 on: December 31, 2014, 01:25:00 AM »
Maybe it's my screen, but the guard and pin on the knife Dennis shows looks like steel to me?

Shreck's knife has brass, at least on this screen?

John
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Offline blackdave

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Re: An interesting knife
« Reply #8 on: December 31, 2014, 01:52:35 AM »
My alarm bells went off with the HB stamp - Hudson Bay typically stamped their wares with a stamp marked HBC.  The HB stamp is what has been widely used on faked pieces - reputable and knowledgeable collectors have told me that the HB stamp generally indicates a "replica" piece.  I cannot say with absolute certainty, but HB makes me nervous.  I easily could be in error, but this is what I have been told by hardcore collectors of Hudson Bay items.  I remain your humble servant,

Just Dave
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Offline B. Hey

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Re: An interesting knife
« Reply #9 on: December 31, 2014, 02:27:05 AM »
This info might help some ....  https://www.gov.mb.ca/chc/archives/hbca/info_sheets/hbc_fur_trade_tokens.pdf

Great looking knife regardless. :)

Offline Luke MacGillie

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Re: An interesting knife
« Reply #10 on: December 31, 2014, 02:35:44 AM »
Not related to this knife, but to things marked H.B.Co, which are often marketed in the antique world as being Hudson Bay Company, this link shows that is is actually the Hall, Boardmand & Company a Philly importer of base metal goods....
http://www.sha.org/assets/documents/Trademarks%20on%20Base-Metal%20Tableware.pdf

Offline jrb

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Re: An interesting knife
« Reply #11 on: January 02, 2015, 03:05:28 AM »
Maybe 1960s high school shop class, some guys around here were making knives as their years project.

Micah2

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Re: An interesting knife
« Reply #12 on: January 04, 2015, 12:38:52 AM »
I believe that the knife is much older than nineteenth century.  the dust collected in the handle and under the guard suggests authenticity to me.  This patina and others on the knife would be a high degree of "aging" and probably not worth recreating for forgery, no puns intended.

Offline jrb

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Re: An interesting knife
« Reply #13 on: January 04, 2015, 08:18:27 PM »
 For years I've been trying to search for info on original 18th century knives with crown antler handles made or traded in the Eastern U.S.
There's the one pictured on Don Troiani's historicalimagebank.com. It's dated 1759 on the leather scabbard and listed as excavated in Philidelphia. The blade (mostly covered by the scabbard in the photo)  seems to be a typical 18th-early19th century ratail tanged British trade knife, with no bolster, like shown in the archaeology book by Lyle Stone, "Fort Michilimackinac 1715-1781". I believe It likely originally had a 1 piece bone or wood handle, that cracked and was replaced with the shed antler.
 In 2004 I found one laying in the bottom of a plowed furrow on a local Native village site. It's a ratailed tang type, with an integral iron bolster, not a type easy to construct, tang and bolster section likely of iron, forge welded to a steel blade, touch mark on left side of blade unreadable but probably British factory made, the original handle clearly replaced with a crowned antler shed.
These 2 are all I've come up with in my search so far, both have replacement handles though and weren't found under controlled scientific conditions.
There are traders lists of British imported goods, listing "buck" handled knives, but I don't think they are referring to one piece crown antler.
  The example Dennis and his Friend shared here seems to be much different, like the contemporary,"homemade" "Woodbury" style,  except it has a touchmark on a guard and an extremely curved handle. If there's more info on this one it would be awesome.

Offline art riser

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Re: An interesting knife
« Reply #14 on: January 04, 2015, 08:36:31 PM »
dust is the easiest thing to replicate... crushed dirt dabber nests, vacuum cleaner dust, dust from the interior of old antique pieces... burnt umber oil paint mixed with black powdered tempera paint also works well...

http://contemporarymakers.blogspot.com/search?q=ian+pratt&updated-max=2013-01-30T07:03:00-05:00&max-results=20&start=14&by-date=false

scroll down
« Last Edit: January 04, 2015, 08:40:05 PM by art riser »

Offline Dennis Glazener

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Re: An interesting knife
« Reply #15 on: January 05, 2015, 12:17:33 AM »
I just added another full view of the knife, I had the link there but had a typing error and it did not show, it does now.

My friend asked me to also add this "THE FACT THAT THE KNIFE USES AN IRON RIVET AND THE GUARD METAL IS NOT BRASS, AND IS NOT RESPONSIVE TO A MAGNET". I thought this strange and even verified if he meant that IT WAS magnetic but he assured me that the guard does not appear to be brass nor does it respond to a magnet.
Dennis
« Last Edit: January 05, 2015, 12:28:55 AM by Dennis Glazener »
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Offline Ky-Flinter

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Re: An interesting knife
« Reply #16 on: January 05, 2015, 04:11:50 AM »
Looking at the closeup picture of the stamp, it looks like it could be FB, although the top horizontal line of the "F" looks different from the rest of the impression.  I've no idea who "FB" would be.

-Ron
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Offline Ky-Flinter

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Re: An interesting knife
« Reply #17 on: January 05, 2015, 04:14:28 AM »
....... the guard does not appear to be brass nor does it respond to a magnet.
Dennis

Pewter?  I would think that would be too soft.  Silver?

-Ron
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Offline T.C.Albert

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Re: An interesting knife
« Reply #18 on: January 05, 2015, 04:29:02 AM »
Is it nickle or other base metal alloy cut and filed out from a large coin?
Just wondering, are there many other provenanced examples of the
conjoined HB mark being used in a similar fashion?
tc
« Last Edit: January 05, 2015, 05:08:19 AM by T.C.Albert »
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Offline Luke MacGillie

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Re: An interesting knife
« Reply #19 on: January 05, 2015, 06:32:17 AM »
Is it nickle or other base metal alloy cut and filed out from a large coin?
Just wondering, are there many other provenanced examples of the
conjoined HB mark being used in a similar fashion?
tc

There are a number of fakes out there on ebay that use conjoined HB, but in oval or diamond settings not square, perhaps because the square wore out......I take the stance that everything is fake  until proven otherwise, simply because I got burnt one to many times when starting out in my collecting career.  Perhaps someday i will not be so quick to assume fake, but right now, if I dont see it pulled from the ground, and from the right strata, I just have to assume the worst. 

Offline LRB

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Re: An interesting knife
« Reply #20 on: January 05, 2015, 02:39:39 PM »
   A strong magnet will attract a high nickel content alloy.

bonron

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Re: An interesting knife
« Reply #21 on: January 05, 2015, 04:38:21 PM »
Going back to reply #2 - how do you know it's from a naturally shed antler?

Mike R

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Re: An interesting knife
« Reply #22 on: January 05, 2015, 05:18:42 PM »
I suspect the guard is German silver, an alloy used in europe by the 1820s but not widely seen in US work until late 1830s.  Many imported Bowie knives from England used German silver, but iron/steel was more common.  Brass was used sparingly on guards, but was used.  It is easy to fake "old" on stuff--just take a look at some of Kettenburgs rifles--WOW! I had a Bowie once that looked very old but was made by a fellow in Arkansas in the 1960s or 70s. Interesting knife, but I don't think it was common to mark them on guards like that.

Offline Dennis Glazener

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Re: An interesting knife
« Reply #23 on: January 05, 2015, 07:47:01 PM »
My friend sent this to me this morning.
Quote
Picked up a 13 lb. magnet at the hardware store ...  The guard "does" respond to it lightly..  The mystery continues..

Dennis
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Offline Shreckmeister

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Re: An interesting knife
« Reply #24 on: January 05, 2015, 09:09:59 PM »
Going back to reply #2 - how do you know it's from a naturally shed antler?

   Because it is rough and crowned where it seperated from the skull.  This is how they fall off the deer.  If it was cut off it would be flat not crowned.
Rightful liberty is unobstructed action according to our will within limits drawn around us by the equal rights of others. I do not add 'within the limits of the law' because law is often but the tyrant's will, and always so when it violates the rights of the individual.