Author Topic: Jim Bridger Rifle...no the Other Rifle  (Read 11029 times)

greywuuf

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Jim Bridger Rifle...no the Other Rifle
« on: January 01, 2015, 12:45:41 PM »
Well after several hours spread over several days using every search term and combination I could think of I have seen only ONE mention of the .40 caliber back action lock attributed to old Jim, and that was the museum picture where the poster was telling us Bridger's rifle was not a Hawken. SO um  I have this back action lock and would like to build this other gun ( that I kept running into a couple years ago while trying to learn about Hawkens and paid no attention to ) and of course I can find next to no information on it. I have found the museum site and the "Specs" they list for it ( which are fairly complete) but they list it as a HEXAGONAL barrel and don't discuss number of grooves or twist. Have any of the resident Hawken people Seen this rifle ( in there research of course I know its not a Hawken ) and if so can we confirm it is a 6 flat barrel? 

Knowing this percussion gun is outside of the forum time frame if anyone would like to discuss a possible build of this gun please contact me with a PM

Thanks
Dan

Offline Dennis Glazener

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Re: Jim Bridger Rifle...no the Other Rifle
« Reply #1 on: January 01, 2015, 05:23:40 PM »
Quote
Knowing this percussion gun is outside of the forum time frame if anyone would like to discuss a possible build of this gun please contact me with a PM

Greywuuf,
Unless I am missing something, that rifle is fine for discussion here on ALR. Back action locks are side locks and as long as the rifle in question is a muzzleloader it fits the ALR rules. Now if its a cartridge gun you are correct in not starting a discussion about it on ALR.
Dennis
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Offline bama

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Re: Jim Bridger Rifle...no the Other Rifle
« Reply #2 on: January 01, 2015, 05:30:11 PM »
I am not aware of this rifle but i think that there were many different types of rifles used other than Hawkens during this time frame of history. Not trying to take anything away from the Hawken brothers but they were not the only game in town.
« Last Edit: January 01, 2015, 06:25:51 PM by Ky-Flinter »
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Offline Bob Roller

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Re: Jim Bridger Rifle...no the Other Rifle
« Reply #3 on: January 01, 2015, 05:40:13 PM »
I am not aware of this rifle but i think that there were many different types of rifles used other than Hawkens during this time frame of history. Not trying to tKe anything away from the Hawken brothers but they were not the only game in town.

The Hawken rifle got the publicity probably because of the shop location and the fact that J.P.Gemmer
kept it alive into the early 20th century.There were other guns for sure that went West.Facing West at the base of the St'Louis Arch,the left base is supposedly the site of the Albright Hardware Company that furnished a lot of guns and supplies for the West bound travelers.

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Offline Dphariss

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Re: Jim Bridger Rifle...no the Other Rifle
« Reply #4 on: January 01, 2015, 06:01:30 PM »
Well after several hours spread over several days using every search term and combination I could think of I have seen only ONE mention of the .40 caliber back action lock attributed to old Jim, and that was the museum picture where the poster was telling us Bridger's rifle was not a Hawken. SO um  I have this back action lock and would like to build this other gun ( that I kept running into a couple years ago while trying to learn about Hawkens and paid no attention to ) and of course I can find next to no information on it. I have found the museum site and the "Specs" they list for it ( which are fairly complete) but they list it as a HEXAGONAL barrel and don't discuss number of grooves or twist. Have any of the resident Hawken people Seen this rifle ( in there research of course I know its not a Hawken ) and if so can we confirm it is a 6 flat barrel? 

Knowing this percussion gun is outside of the forum time frame if anyone would like to discuss a possible build of this gun please contact me with a PM

Thanks
Dan

While its very possible that the rifle belonged to Bridger at some time or another a 40 caliber would have been of very limited usefulness west of Westport's Landing. Unless its fitted with a false muzzle or is turned for a starter. Then It might have been useful with a picket bullet for rifle matches as Ft Bridger perhaps. He could have been traded the rifle by some emigrant. We do not know.   We also have to think of Bat Masterson. He kept a colt or two in his desk, he was a sports writer in later years IIRC, that he would sell to people as his revolver. Then he would go to a pawnshop and buy another for the next sucker.

Dan
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Offline Dphariss

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Re: Jim Bridger Rifle...no the Other Rifle
« Reply #5 on: January 01, 2015, 06:31:52 PM »
Meek apparently had a rifle with a back action lock he called "Old Sally". Its a short barreled fullstock, patent breech with a two piece forend that allows barrel removal via only one barrel key. But I doubt its 40 caliber.
There were lots of rifles in the west but the Hawken is the best hunting rifle for the west, or anyplace else in the lower 48 for that matter. They were, by all accounts expensive. But they were well made, study and accurate. Some carried "sturdy" almost too far, like the Bridger Hawken and some other late rifles, these are pretty large specimens. Even "back in the day" (pre-Gemmer) they had a national reputation. So while its easy to poo-poo the Hawken as uncommon etc. the fact remains that the rifles WERE used and DID have a considerable reputation by about 1840+-. They are at least mentioned by name in writings of the time it seems to be more difficult to find mentions of even far more common rifles like the Henry.

Dan
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Offline Dphariss

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Re: Jim Bridger Rifle...no the Other Rifle
« Reply #6 on: January 01, 2015, 06:34:43 PM »
Well after several hours spread over several days using every search term and combination I could think of I have seen only ONE mention of the .40 caliber back action lock attributed to old Jim, and that was the museum picture where the poster was telling us Bridger's rifle was not a Hawken. SO um  I have this back action lock and would like to build this other gun ( that I kept running into a couple years ago while trying to learn about Hawkens and paid no attention to ) and of course I can find next to no information on it. I have found the museum site and the "Specs" they list for it ( which are fairly complete) but they list it as a HEXAGONAL barrel and don't discuss number of grooves or twist. Have any of the resident Hawken people Seen this rifle ( in there research of course I know its not a Hawken ) and if so can we confirm it is a 6 flat barrel? 

Knowing this percussion gun is outside of the forum time frame if anyone would like to discuss a possible build of this gun please contact me with a PM

Thanks
Dan

It sounds like what is normally called a Hawken "squirrel rifle" made for the local trade in Missouri.
One also has to remember that there are surviving original Hawken stamps out there..... These would, naturally, match the stamping on original rifles perfectly.

Dan
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Re: Jim Bridger Rifle...no the Other Rifle
« Reply #7 on: January 01, 2015, 06:40:50 PM »
As Greywuuf said, the rifle he is researching is NOT a Hawken.  The rifle was made by W. Ogden of Owego, New York.   Following is information on the rifle in question, from the Museum of the Mountainman website.  http://museumofthemountainman.com/jim-bridgers-rifle/

JIM BRIDGER’S RIFLE



In 1853, Louis Vasquez a good friend and business partner of Jim Bridger, had this 40 caliber half-stock rifle engraved J. Bridger 1853, and presented it to Jim for reasons still unknown.  Perhaps it had something to do with their long business association or possibly it was due to the fact that 1853 was indeed a turning point in Jim Bridger’s life.

Following Bridger’s death the rifle was held as part of a private Buffalo Bill Collection.  In 1940 the scout’s rifle and the powder horn were put to auction by Theodore Dexter, then one of the most notable rare-arms dealer in the United States, and it stayed in the private collection of Mr. A. W. McCollough of Laramie, Wyoming until 1968.  Rare-arms dealer Robert Nelson of Cheyenne, Wyoming purchased the Bridger Rifle in 1968 but subsequently sold it to another dealer in Texas where it has remained until it found a permanent home in the Museum of the Mountain Man in 1988.

This half-stock, percussion plains rifle is bored .403 Caliber (rifled).  It carries a pewter fore-end cap, brass trim, “plains” style trigger guard, H.T. Cooper back-action lock, and hickory ramrod.  The rifle’s walnut stock is decorated with inlain eagles, the left eagle engraved, “J. Bridger 1853.” An unusual feature is that its stock was built with two cheekpieces.  Riflemaker W. Ogden of Owego, New York stamped his name on the barrel.  It weighs eleven pounds and its overall length is 49-1/2 inches.

Gift of the May Schwabacher Memorial.

Measurements:
Overall Length: 49-½ inches
Hexagon Barrel:
Length of Barrel: 32-¾ inches
Flat to flat at muzzle: 1-1/16 inches
Flat to flat at breech: 1-1/16 inches
Caliber: .403
Under rib from Muzzle to front of nose cap: 21 ¾ inches
Tang (embedded in stock behind lock): 5 ¼ inches, 3/8 inch wide at back
Ramrod:
Diameter: 15/16 inch
Length:  23-1/2 inches
Front pipe: ¾ inch long
Back pipe: ¾ inch long
Muzzle to front of front pipe: 4-5/8 inches
Muzzle to front of back pipe: 13-¼ inches
Sights:
Front sight is ¼ inch embedded base and 7/8 tapered sight above barrel
Back sight is ½ inch embedded base, ¼ inch tall, and 5/8 inch wide
Muzzle to front of front sight at base: 1-1/8 inches
Back of front sight base to front of back sight base: 22-9/16 inches
Stock:
Muzzle to front of nose cap: 21-¾ inches
Nose cap length: ¾ inch
Front of nose cap to butt plate at center of curve: 26 inch
Butt plate to comb (rise just behind wrist): 8-3/4
Cheek in:  6 inch long, 1 inch high in front, 2 ¼ inch high in back, ½ inch deep at bottom
Oval inlay: 1-3/8 inch wide, 7/16 inch tall
Bird inlay: 1-3/16 wide (wing tip to wing tip), 1-9/16 tall (top head to bottom base)
Length of Pull (front trigger to center of butt plate): 13-½ inches
Drop at heel (from top of barrel to top of butt plate): 4-½ inches
Drop at comb (just behind wrist): 1-7/8 inches
Wrist just in front of comb: 2 inch wide, 1-5/8 inch deep
Wrist in front of lock mortus: 2 inch wide
Top of barrel to bottom of stock in front of lock mortus: 2 inches
Top of butt plate to bottom of toe plate: 4-½ inches
Width at center of butt plate: 1-1/8 inches
Width at top and bottom of butt plate: ½ inch
Top of butt plate: 3 inches long
Butt plate: 3/8 inch thick at top, 1/16 inch thick at toe plate
Toe plate: 3-15/16 inch long, ½ inch wide, 1/32 inch thick
« Last Edit: January 01, 2015, 06:43:34 PM by Ky-Flinter »
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Offline spiderman852

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Re: Jim Bridger Rifle...no the Other Rifle
« Reply #8 on: January 01, 2015, 06:54:25 PM »
Good info! Where would one find a lock like that?

Mike

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Re: Jim Bridger Rifle...no the Other Rifle
« Reply #9 on: January 01, 2015, 06:56:58 PM »
It's hard to tell from the one photo above, but in my opinion (which is based on nothing more than having stayed at a Holiday Inn once) I don't think the barrel is hexagonal.  More likely it's octagonal, and the museum folks made a mistake.  Note the ramrod diameter given as 15/16" in the specs list.  Maybe you could give them a call and ask about the barrel.  I'll bet they would help you.

Cool rifle.  Hopefully some of our members who have visited the Museum of the Mountainman in Pinedale, Wyoming can provide additional info on this piece.  Good luck with your research and build.

-Ron
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Re: Jim Bridger Rifle...no the Other Rifle
« Reply #10 on: January 01, 2015, 07:02:19 PM »
Good info! Where would one find a lock like that?

Mike

L and R makes a back-action lock in right and left.

-Ron
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Offline spiderman852

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Re: Jim Bridger Rifle...no the Other Rifle
« Reply #11 on: January 01, 2015, 08:29:59 PM »
Thanks, I'll check them out.

Mike

mattdog

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Re: Jim Bridger Rifle...no the Other Rifle
« Reply #12 on: January 01, 2015, 08:51:38 PM »
It's interesting that the cheek rest is on the same side as the lock, like it was made for a lefty but only a right hand lock was available at the time.  Was Bridger left handed?

Offline Kermit

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Re: Jim Bridger Rifle...no the Other Rifle
« Reply #13 on: January 01, 2015, 09:01:40 PM »
The rifle has two cheek pieces, one each side. Blow up the photo and you'll see what looks for all the world to have 8 faces. It's common for folks to refer to a stop sign as a hexagon. They failed or never took high school geometry, or maybe just generally don't pay attention. Al Roker made just such a snafu on national TV this morning during the Rose Parade broadcast. I'm fond of pointing out that there IS a creature called an octopus, but NO hexapus--unless it's an amputee.
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Offline gunmaker

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Re: Jim Bridger Rifle...no the Other Rifle
« Reply #14 on: January 01, 2015, 09:16:39 PM »
Barrels are commonly called "HEX"  on the auction sites.   10 to 1 that rifle has a 8 sided bbl.  look at the reflection off bbl. flats....   Nice target rifle, a rascal to carry all day tho.....Tom

galamb

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Re: Jim Bridger Rifle...no the Other Rifle
« Reply #15 on: January 01, 2015, 09:56:38 PM »
There are a number of original Ohio half-stock rifles with the cheek piece on both sides of the stock.

It wasn't "uncommon" to see one from the the late 1840's through the 50's (same period that back-action locks were popular) built that way.

Pecatonica River even has a precarve (Ohio) with a cheek piece on both sides.

Offline shifty

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Re: Jim Bridger Rifle...no the Other Rifle
« Reply #16 on: January 01, 2015, 10:33:42 PM »
Hey Ky-Flinter does a Holiday Inn Express count ;D

greywuuf

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Re: Jim Bridger Rifle...no the Other Rifle
« Reply #17 on: January 01, 2015, 10:36:56 PM »
Thank you Ky-flinter,
yes that is the rifle, and it is also the only picture I can find of it currently. Was hoping someone else was familiar with it ( Herb maybe being how good his research on Bridger and the Time frame is )

I am asking about the twist of the rifle as I am wondering if it is a "Bullet" gun.

greywuuf

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Re: Jim Bridger Rifle...no the Other Rifle
« Reply #18 on: January 02, 2015, 12:31:59 AM »
I am seeing a top flat ( and assuming a bottom ) then two more per side angled from the top to mid line and angled from midline to bottom.... wont an octagon have a vertical flat ?  the picture is not very high res hoping for first hand info on this.  thanks for the interest guys!
 
Also, does anyone have any information about the J Nosworthy Back action Plains rifle in the museum in LA? it seems to have been published with complete kit., and is in remarkable condition. For some reason these Big half stock back actions have garnered my interest as of late.
« Last Edit: January 02, 2015, 12:40:05 AM by greywuuf »

Offline Dphariss

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Re: Jim Bridger Rifle...no the Other Rifle
« Reply #19 on: January 02, 2015, 02:02:58 AM »
Thank you Ky-flinter,
yes that is the rifle, and it is also the only picture I can find of it currently. Was hoping someone else was familiar with it ( Herb maybe being how good his research on Bridger and the Time frame is )

I am asking about the twist of the rifle as I am wondering if it is a "Bullet" gun.
While it could have been fitted with a false muzzle it does not appear to be turned for a starter, the other option for shooting picket bullets.
 Would need photos of the muzzle to really know though.
"Hex" has been a common description of octagon by the uniformed for a very long time.

Dan
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Offline Kermit

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Re: Jim Bridger Rifle...no the Other Rifle
« Reply #20 on: January 02, 2015, 10:02:37 PM »
Greywuuf, I'm seeing octagon. Looking just forward of the entry, I see the underrib attached to the bottom flat, then darker is the lower side flat angled outward, next the vertical side flat lighter in shade because of the reflected light, then the upper side flat about the same shade as the lower. The top flat is parallel to the line of sight of the photographer, so it doesn't show. As seen through my slight and growing cataracts.  ;)
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Offline Duane Harshaw

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Re: Jim Bridger Rifle...no the Other Rifle
« Reply #21 on: January 02, 2015, 11:38:25 PM »
  Jim Bridger also had a Hawken, rifle and it is on display in a museum in Helena Montana.
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