Quick Quiz

[Dan]

.388” bore and .424” groove, 38” RH twist

http://wyomingschuetzenunion.com/ubbthreads.php/galleries/116/Reinhard_Picket_Rifle



How would you load this one?

Dan

[Kermit]

I'd start by asking Joe "Westerner" Gussenhoven. He visits here from time to time, and frequents the ASSRA site.

[Bob Roller]

.388” bore and .424” groove, 38” RH twist

http://wyomingschuetzenunion.com/ubbthreads.php/galleries/116/Reinhard_Picket_Rifle



How would you load this one?

Dan

 If it IS a picket bullet gun I would load it VERY carefully.The lack of any
real bearing surface of that odd bullet makes it a nuisance to load.
If I were wanting to shoot it I would get a .385 ball mould and hope to
find a patch material that will seal the bore.From .388 to.424 is a big
gap to fill.Keep us posted if possible.

Bob Roller

[Nit Wit]

It looks like a new England rifle. I'd start by loading it in my car!
Nit Wit

[Dan]

Bob,

I have generally reached the same conclusion regarding the groove depth.  The gun shoots fairly well with round balls but let there be no doubt, there is no way to seal that gap with patches.  It makes me wonder if Mr. Reinhard was thinking the same as others in that era regarding target gun barrels, that being to construct them with intention of having them rebored after shooting them a bit. Billinghurst and his peers did so frequently from what I've read.

The late Richard Hicks made a mould for a Lewis style picket bullet for the gun but there was no success to be had.  After a dozen or so attempts I gave that up. Mostly they landed sideways.

I have no doubt it was intended for picket style bullet due to the twist, the era of it's manufacture and the muzzle being configured for a bullet starter.  Not to say I'd rely on any one of those factors, but with all things considered I cannot see it any other way.

Thanks for your suggestion!

[Bob Roller]

Bob,

I have generally reached the same conclusion regarding the groove depth.  The gun shoots fairly well with round balls but let there be no doubt, there is no way to seal that gap with patches.  It makes me wonder if Mr. Reinhard was thinking the same as others in that era regarding target gun barrels, that being to construct them with intention of having them rebored after shooting them a bit. Billinghurst and his peers did so frequently from what I've read.

The late Richard Hicks made a mould for a Lewis style picket bullet for the gun but there was no success to be had.  After a dozen or so attempts I gave that up. Mostly they landed sideways.

I have no doubt it was intended for picket style bullet due to the twist, the era of it's manufacture and the muzzle being configured for a bullet starter.  Not to say I'd rely on any one of those factors, but with all things considered I cannot see it any other way.

Thanks for your suggestion!

 If I were going to shoot it,I'd try to find someone to dress and concave the lands and maybe,if needed
clean the grooves.If possible,maybe a .405 land diameter using a soft cast 41 magnum bullet loaded thru a new guide starter would work.
N.G.Whitmore made a picket gun for General Grant that when tested by him (Whitmore)at 110 yards
put ten shots on the lid of a percussion cap box.This was done with a pin head front sight and a tang
mounted peep sight.Whitmore made 12 groove gain twist barrels that out shot every thing of their time
and I think if someone would resurrect this idea we might all be surprised.
Major Roberts said a man he knew had a Whitmore bullet gun that outshot everything and was finally
barred as being unfair competition.Something to think about.

Bob Roller

[Dan]

Bob, I have puzzled about doing such things, truly. On one hand there is the desire to preserve and on the other a wish to have it strike terror in the hearts of the competition. 

The barrel is secured by virtue of a vertical tapered pin which runs thru a lug extending from the breech plug.  It would actually be easy to access the bore from the breech end and lap to a more suitable geometry. The bore is in excellent condition for what it might be worth. Barrel is made of "cast steel", or so it states.

Thanks

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

If your measurements are accurate, you have grooves that are .018" deep.  I sincerely doubt that it was designed to shoot a cylindrical conoidal bullet such as a picket bullet.  My opinion (free whether you ask for it or not) is that is is meant to shoot a patched round ball.  A pure lead ball almost or at bore size, and a .020" - .025" patch would be deadly, with a light powder charge...say 25 - 30 gr.  You need do nothing but polish that bore to make it accurate, fun to shoot and easy to clean.

[Bob Roller]

Bob, I have puzzled about doing such things, truly. On one hand there is the desire to preserve and on the other a wish to have it strike terror in the hearts of the competition. 

The barrel is secured by virtue of a vertical tapered pin which runs thru a lug extending from the breech plug.  It would actually be easy to access the bore from the breech end and lap to a more suitable geometry. The bore is in excellent condition for what it might be worth. Barrel is made of "cast steel", or so it states.

Thanks

Lapping is implying the use of abrasives.That can cut the "driving side"of the rifling and
destroy accuracy.Maybe Bob Hoyt can come up with a solution.I haven't got the equipment
for any barrel work but maybe a piloted reamer could open up the bore maybe to .410 .
I said .405 before but a .410 would be better. Hoyt can answer this question in a heartbeat.
The Whitmore rifles with their 12 groove barrels proved their superiority and why a barrel
maker today can't/won't copy it is puzzling.I tried to get Bill Large to do it and he knew how well
the Whitmore rifles performed.A test of Walter Cline's Whitmore 43 caliber rifle in 1935 at
186 yards made a 10 shot one ragged hole group.The test was conducted at the Peters Cartridge Company
I think at Kings Mills Ohio.Find a copy of Cline's book and verify this.

Bob Roller

[Bob Roller]

If your measurements are accurate, you have grooves that are .018" deep.  I sincerely doubt that it was designed to shoot a cylindrical conoidal bullet such as a picket bullet.  My opinion (free whether you ask for it or not) is that is is meant to shoot a patched round ball.  A pure lead ball almost or at bore size, and a .020" - .025" patch would be deadly, with a light powder charge...say 25 - 30 gr.  You need do nothing but polish that bore to make it accurate, fun to shoot and easy to clean.

Taylor,
The picket bullet was also patched and there was a reason the barrel is turned for an always
missing guide starter.True enough,it can be shot with a ball and sail cloth and it may well work.
The only thing worse than a picket bullet would be a cube....maybe.The phenomenal group shot
with Walter Cline's Whitmore was done with a picket bullet.I would assume the rod was nearly
land diameter and the loading end was bored with the same tool that made the bullet mould.
Any tipping at all and the group would be VERY large at the 186 yards they had available.

Bob Roller

[Dan]

Taylor, Bob is quite correct about the patching of picket style bullets.  Like all things the picket bullet evolved.  The first iteration looked a lot like a guitar pick in profile, but it wasn't long before the flat base picket was developed.  The original sugarloaf form was universally patched with fabrics and perhaps leather on occasion.  The flat base picket saw use with both fabric and paper.  Somewhere along the way Nelson Lewis (Lewis Style Picket) contrived his version which essentially looked like the flat based/flat nose variant with a belt on the bottom which addressed to some degree the myriad of sins associated with the previous versions. At some point there was even a double belted version.  I believe but am not certain that most of the Nelson style bullets were paper patched.

[Dphariss]

If concerned about the groove depth then buy a brass barrel lap or two of the proper size and increase the bore size with them. Will take some work to take perhaps .005-.008" off on a side but will leave a perfect bore as well. Start with 220 grit and finish with 400 or 600. I would rotate the lap 1/3 turn every 10 strokes or less. OR use a piloted reamer and ream out .006 THEN run the barrel lap to smooth the bore. But reaming old barrels has its risks since then are not metallugically perfect and often have inclusions.

http://www.americanlap.com/Barrel%20Laps.htm

Then cast a lap in the barrel and lap it to take off any too sharp edges and smooth the grooves perhaps.  If the grooves are smooth just 5 minutes with a lap is all that is needed to dull the land edges enough to not cut patches.
Unless the operator really goofs this will not hurt accuracy and usually improves it.
Be careful not the push the lap out the muzzle other than to clean or recharge with compound. If the lap is pushed out the muzzle too much it can bell the muzzle. But if lapped with the FM in place there is no risk.


Dan

[Dan]

Wow, thanks for that. I see mischief in my future.